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You can read about it right here: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/182419-subconscious-auditory-effects-of-quasi-linear-phase-loudspeakers/&do=findComment&comment=2388946
 
Remember that Jubilees are truly full-range-directivity loudspeakers, and almost everyone is not paying attention to that.  It's game-changing performance if taken advantage of.  The audibility of the things discussed in the link above--particularly performance below 800 Hz--is much greater than anyone had been writing about.  It seems as if the rest of the audio world is oblivious to it (or they don't want it to be true).  You can easily get audio mixing/mastering control room performance out of them without having anywhere near the degree of room treatments typically used in those rooms...because the Jubs largely do it for you via their inherent directivity.  The other significant horn design issues of the past have been corrected with the Jubilee, so the focus can now be on performance that neither has been realized nor often heard except perhaps in extremely well-treated rooms--and even those control rooms can't recreate what the Jubs are doing in rooms with ~0.4 s reverberation times (versus 0.1 s). 
 
Chris
How do the MEHs compare?

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

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7 hours ago, Chris A said:

I could easily guess what Roy did because I've experienced something just as dramatic in my listening room (if not more)...but my experiences don't seem to count. :wink:

 

Chris

 

What's the guess?

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Well, there's a better than good chance Roy changed the crossover filters and updated the HF channel delay to reflect that change (both affecting phase response).  Since the Dx38's PEQs are basically all in use already, my guess is that the flatness of the compression driver SPL response might not have changed measurably.  He might also have updated the settings in-room in the bass response to reflect the actual room that they're in (rather than their anechoic response).

 

The K-691s are actually pretty good drivers, better sounding than the old K-69-As in the top-most octave.

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Ron E said:

How do the MEHs compare?

Well, for starters, it's "how does" in more appropriate, since there's but one K-402-MEH here presently.

 

So with that constraint in mind, the comparison of the single MEH with each Jub is very much identical in their timbre, transient behavior, and coverage vs. frequency (with the MEH more consistent than the Jubs due to the single horn aperture in use).  The soundstage image across the front of the array (L, C, R) is completely seamless when you move from wall to wall across the width of the room.  The area of change in the MEH is the 100-170 Hz band (where transfer to room boundary loading begins, while the Jubs handover to room boundary loading at about 100 Hz. 

 

The K-402-MEH as I've got it set up covers almost an additional octave below the Jubilee (i.e., 18 Hz at -3 dB vs. 31 Hz for the Jubilee--without further boosting EQ). This is pretty audible while playing surround pipe organ pieces and other recordings having significant sub-30 Hz content (mostly on multichannel recordings).  BTW: I've found that almost all the electronica and "urban contemporary" music bottom out at about 30 Hz.  Below that point, it's mostly tactile because there is little harmonic distortion in either loudspeaker type to give sub-30 Hz content away to the listener--even when playing at high SPL.  The MEH is smoother as it goes through that region than the Jubilee bass bin/TH sub handover at 30 Hz.  This is audible during the measurement upsweeps.

 

Other than that, the K-402-MEH has a smoother midbass and lower midrange than the Jubs off-axis, but most of that difference is now barely audible since I changed over to the new "zeroth order" crossover filters, which provide a bit smoother polar coverage in the Jubilee crossover interference band.

 

Chris

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Here is a plot of the Jubilee phase response (violet), K-402-MEH (blue) and the ESS AMT-1/Belle bass bin surrounds (peach):

Phase Response of 5.1 Array.jpg

 

And the group delay from the same measurements:

 

Group Delay Response of 5.1 Array.jpg

 

This performance is so close for the MEH and the Jubilees that it's pretty difficult to hear the difference, which was my design goal.

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

Well, there's a better than good chance Roy changed the crossover filters and updated the HF channel delay to reflect that change (both affecting phase response).  Since the Dx38's PEQs are basically all in use already, my guess is that the flatness of the compression driver SPL response might not have changed measurably.  He might also have updated the settings in-room in the bass response to reflect the actual room that they're in (rather than their anechoic response).

 

The K-691s are actually pretty good drivers, better sounding than the old K-69-As in the top-most octave.

 

Chris

 

So you think that when Klipsch moved to 691s and Roy figured out the settings for the various processors and gave those out to all of us............that he himself then switched to using  the Danley style of crossovers now (I.E your method), and didn't tell anyone..............and that's what we heard at the education session in Hope............(where we also received a detailed lesson on how he develops crossovers)?

 

Be clear now.............

 

 

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6 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

So you think that when Klipsch moved to 691s and Roy figured out the settings for the various processors and gave those out to all of us............that he himself then switched to using  the Danley style of crossovers now (I.E your method), and didn't tell anyone..............and that's what we heard at the education session in Hope............(where we also received a detailed lesson on how he develops crossovers)?

 

Be clear now.............

 

I was clear:  I'm guessing what he did--if he changed anything (which could be as simple as "he didn't change anything--your perception is what changed instead").  He's out of PEQs to use in the Dx38, so unless he changed out the compression drivers themselves, there's not a lot else that could have changed.  I think It's much better to ask Roy what he did (if anything).  This is what I said:

 

9 hours ago, Chris A said:

I could easily guess what Roy did because I've experienced something just as dramatic in my listening room (if not more)...

What I said is that I've experienced a BIG change in the sound of the Jubs in-room recently.  Big enough to take the time describe those changes to others if they want to try it, too.  Note that there are other Jubilee owners (last count is ~five) besides myself that also use Xilica settings like the ones I use, except that theirs are dialed in specifically for their listening rooms using REW measurements.

 

Chris

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Well I have a guess too.  It's that very little if anything changed in how those Jubs were setup, and that the settings shared with Jub customers are the same settings Klipsch is using........give or take a minor tweak which should be expected over time.  But no radical elimination of crossover filters with people's name on them in exchange for the competitor's solution...............which is what I thought you were alluding to.

 

It would have been worth the trip to the education session so you could see firsthand how they develop the crossovers.

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45 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

But no radical elimination of crossover filters with people's name on them in exchange for the competitor's solution...............which is what I thought you were alluding to.  It would have been worth the trip to the education session so you could see firsthand how they develop the crossovers.

Mark, I was hoping for something better than this, to be honest.  That's okay.  I shouldn't be disappointed.  Your behavior has been consistent.

 

This started out with you apparently still in some sort of distress about your setup's sound quality, since you said:

 

On 12/6/2019 at 2:25 PM, mark1101 said:

...The 2-way Jub blew me away...Clearly, Roy has evolved the presentation of the Jubs.  If I could get THAT sound in my house it would be the end-all for me.  I don't think 2 or 3 way has as much to do about it anymore...I walked out wondering why my expensive setup doesn't match what I heard when he played the Jubs...Roy only had a pair of 691s on his new version 402s, and it appeared he still had the same EV DX-38 processor and same Jub cabinets I saw in there 10 years ago.  He had a new QSC Pro Theater amp.  The drivers, amp, and newest version of 402 horn are probably all that changed in 10 years..........besides the processor settings and maybe wires.  I would just get the standard 2-way now......which gives you those exact speakers........and go to the next education session, listen.........talk to Roy..........and especially look closely at that room.  I know we all like to tinker and find our own sound.  But I don't think I could do any better than that.

That makes two of us, unfortunately.

 

I'm not sure that I can help...even though I tried:

 

On 4/6/2019 at 12:48 PM, mark1101 said:

Chris,

Thanks for this............I had asked Chris to do this...

I spent a career in engineering learning to do things better than just using a checkbook to buy expensive stuff, instead acquiring the expertise the only way that it can be acquired: through personal effort and time.  For me, I continue to learn and explore to improve the sound from my setup using engineering and understanding of the psychoacoustics. It's not really predicated on where the information might have come from--even if it might have come from a competitor patent

 

BTW: I have little time presently for passive crossovers.  I don't fault anyone in the business of making loudspeakers that caters to that market demand--it's just that the demand for passives doesn't come from me. 

 

Chris

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7 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Didn’t change a thing. What I have is what is in the xilica.....

 

Then the reason for the improved sound quality described by @mark1101 must have been the sophisticated audience for this most recent audition!

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We really need to get more young people involved in the hobby.

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33 minutes ago, Marvel said:

We really need to get more young people involved in the hobby.

I'm 64 years young:)

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1 minute ago, babadono said:

I'm 64 years young

 

I know, I know... and I'm only 70. But we really need to get some 30-40 years old folks in here.

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41 minutes ago, Marvel said:

 

I know, I know... and I'm only 70. But we really need to get some 30-40 years old folks in here.

Here  I am 

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1 hour ago, Marvel said:

We really need to get more young people involved in the hobby.

 

Somewhere along the way I went from being "the young guy" to being "the old guy", and nobody told me when it happened.

 

Can I trade my 60 year old body for two 30 year old bodies?

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1 hour ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Here  I am 

Glad you stepped in. I was going to volunteer you but thought maybe I better not.

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4 minutes ago, babadono said:

Glad you stepped in. I was going to volunteer you but thought maybe I better not.

I would be have quite upset.   I am easily offended. 

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