DaveA's Fabulous New Improved Super Tweeters 2.0

[ClaudeJ1]

Let the Curves speak for themselves. Interpretations to follow. Basically, there are 2 lenses, with 2 B&C drivers. Presented at Zero and 30 degree angles respectively! Click on JPG for full frame. For those who want more description, here goes:

The stack of indicators on the left are represent the old and new curves. The top 2 are the DE-120 (was 110 TYPO) on the v1.0 Large MAHL, that I called "Convex Elliptical, the Purple Curve. Next one down is the DE-120 on the Small MAHL, which I called the v1.0 "Convex Conical" (a great misnomer, I know) for the BROWN Curve.

 

The last 4 are all v2.0 and should be self explanatory. I should add that I aligned the "stack of curves" at a 6 Khz. point to within 0.1 db precision in the software AFTER I used a FULL OCTAVE Curve Smoothing Bandwidth Resolution. Why? Because at the current display resolution of 1/12th Octave, which encompasses ALL the individual notes in music for a given octave rendering, ALL the MAHL and Driver combinations fall within a +/- 2 db envelope, which is very flat from 6 Khz-12Khz., which happens to be the limit of my hearing. This is a post process level tweak that I used for greater clarity.

So what happens ABOVE this one octave band, where the curves spread apart? This MAY be heard as "air" or "sibilance" depending on your particular sensitivities or lack thereof. This is why I put the crosshairs at 13 Khz. for reference at 95 db level, which is very loud for a tweeter. I'm confident that my amplifier was "banging the sine waves" pretty hard against those diaphragms, to put the 1 Meter readings very close to peak listening levels you all would use for you music. 

 

As to what happens below, you all can see the DE-10 driver can tolerate the use of a lower crossover point, especially in the LMAHL, while the DE-120, with either lens,  favors the frequencies above my hearing range as ?????.

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by ClaudeJ1
Typo. 110 corrected to 120.

[ClaudeJ1]

Like PWK, once said about the dual phase plug K-55 with the solder lugs instead of the push terminals: "The curve is prettier, but the difference may not be audible." Or something like that, it's been over 40 years since I read it and I'm too lazy to go back for the exact wording in my "Dope from Hope" collection of Klipsch Papers.

[Crankysoldermeister]

1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The curve is prettier, but the difference may not be audible.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much it. However, the difference is quite audible. The plot with that particular Dope from Hope still cracks me up, where the old K-55 is 20dB down at the crossover point.

[Bubo]

Link to the tweeters ?

[Dave A]

Well I have been buried in family stuff and work and did not expect to see this thread but since it is here I guess I need to make information available. Keep in mind these will not be out for a few weeks yet but here is the story. I was told by someone whom I have tremendous respect for that if I eliminated the straight cylinder wall the clamp plates represented the sound would improve. THANK YOU mystery adviser for your great advice! So out comes the trusty seat of Solid Edge and off to modeling I go and then cut time. Claude got the first two small MAHL V2 and two of the first large MAHL V2  tweeters to test. The other set is going into a set of three ways I am going to build soon.

 

  The new setup has an overall depth that is the same as the old one minus the 1/2" thick clamp plate. It is a little more involved to build but the solution was to cut the horn cavity into both the lens and clamp plate.  First up is front view where you can see the height difference.

 

 

 

Next up is the top view of both parts separated and you can see the cavity transition into the clamp plate.

 

 

 

 

   Here is a view into a complete assembly where you can see the seamless transition.

 

 

 

 

 And finally we have the clamp plate layout. There are four hole patterns and the dimensions are on the plate but to eliminate any potential for confusion here is the run down.

 

   5mm hole on 3" or 76.2MM centers for drivers like the Faital HF 100 and 102 and the B&C DE10

  5mm hole on 2.008" or 51mm  centers for drivers like the B&C DE110

  5mm hole on 2.252" or 57.2mm hole centers for drivers like the B&C DE120

  .25" hole size on 3" or 76.2mm hole centers which is another common two bolt hole pattern.

 

 

 

I am discontinuing the 1 and 3/8" 18TPI internally threaded clamp plate because the demand is not large enough for me to keep them on hand. It would involve a rework of the lens body and clamp plate to make this work and until there is a demand for these I am not going further. Honestly I think this is the end for the threaded clamp plates.

[Dave A]

Next up we have the reworked small MAHL and since Claude got my only pair I have just the renderings from the CAD program but you will get the idea.

 

 

 

 

  The clamp plates here allow for the following.

5mm hole on 3" or 76.2MM centers for drivers like the Faital HF 100 and 102 and the B&C DE10

5mm hole on 2.008" or 51mm  centers for drivers like the B&C DE110

5mm hole on 2.252" or 57.2mm hole centers for drivers like the B&C DE120

 As in the larger MAHL the 1 3/8" 18tpi threaded clamp plates are being discontinued for lack of interest.

 

 

   I am pretty excited about both these designs and sad to say Claude has heard them before I did and when I get done with this pile-o-stuff I am in the middle of the first order of business will be to find something to stick these into. Now Claude came up with the word fabulous and I expect he was grinning while he did so but everything he has told me says these are a solid improvement.

[ClaudeJ1]

Very impressive mechanical work, Dave, as always. Thanks for the extra details. I will be hearing them soon in my Super somethings. LOL.

[Thaddeus Smith]

 

 

[DizRotus]

They are works of visual art.

[NBPK402]

Would these be good for a pair of k402 MEHs with EV DH1A drivers? If so would a passive crossover from the k402 work, or would I need a 3 way Xilica, and another amp for the these?

 

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[Dave A]

16 minutes ago, Ron E said:

Would these be good for a pair of k402 MEHs with EV DH1A drivers? If so would a passive crossover from the k402 work, or would I need a 3 way Xilica, and another amp for the these?

 

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Those questions are way beyond my pay grade. Claude or Chris A could tell you about what you propose to do I think.

[Thaddeus Smith]

why would one pick the small vs large MAHL? Is it simply front vs rear mount?

[CECAA850]

2 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

why would one pick the small vs large MAHL? Is it simply front vs rear mount?

There are two different size tweeters that they are replacing.

[CECAA850]

Is it possible to "mod" the old style plates and horns?  I think you see where I am going with this.

[Dave A]

Just now, CECAA850 said:

Is it possible to "mod" the old style plates and horns?  I think you see where I am going with this.

I knew this question would come up and I don't have an answer yet. I machine both the lens and clamp plate bolted together on the horn cavity and what I don't know is how bad pieces might pick out during cutting where the wood transitions into aluminum. Walnut might be OK but Red Oak I think not. I can accept a very minor amount of splintering in the cut as long as it is not distracting and I end up scrapping more than you think especially with the Oak.

 

   Re-cutting the old one? I don't think I will even try as the time to face off wood is in the planer for the surface where the lens body meets the clamp plate and that's not going to happen with lenses already cut.

 

 

[Westcoastdrums]

Ohhhhh, version 2.   It's not a computer, but damn I'm outdated even faster than with a computer 😏.   Keep doing what you guys are doing. The results speak (sound) for themselves.   

[Dave A]

4 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Ohhhhh, version 2.   It's not a computer, but damn I'm outdated even faster than with a computer 😏.   Keep doing what you guys are doing. The results speak (sound) for themselves.   

I know, I thought about this before going ahead. I have bought PC's and two months later a super duper one comes out I would have rather had. The one I bought did exactly what I wanted though so I could not complain too much but yes I could grumble and wish I had waited.

 

     This was a redesign larger than any others I can foresee coming down the pike so I figured like speakers and cars and PC's things do move on. Since the quest for better sound is fairly serious to me I could hardly deny a great suggestion for improvement. It worked and onward we go. You can try these out in something you have laying about which seems to grow at will daily. ;D

[-Russian-Spy-]

10 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Ohhhhh, version 2.   It's not a computer, but damn I'm outdated even faster than with a computer 😏.   Keep doing what you guys are doing. The results speak (sound) for themselves.   

   Same boat over here, i just installed mine a few days ago, you are definitely not alone my friend. I will say the version 1's do sound very good as it is.

[Westcoastdrums]

5 minutes ago, Dave A said:

You can try these out in something you have laying about which seems to grow at will daily. ;D

😂.  Only replaced mains due to overwhelming temptation and strong input from wife. 362 IIs sound better. Slight compromise. Everything else is what I got in the large lot. Trying to sell the last few bits.   It's nice that I can play these cornies at incredibly low volumes and with your tiny little tweeter/horn combo that I bought, they are still clear and balanced.  Allowing grilles to stay on while doing so solves my other problem.   Oh yeah, they are Purdy too.  I will likely be interested in another purchase sometime. Keeping a close eye on what you are doing 👍

[Westcoastdrums]

I was just making a joke about getting the "old" version. I love em and have zero regrets on my purchase. I'm in the Dave A fan club (along with all others that aided to make these happen).  If you are on the fence, do yourself a favor and BUY A PAIR, RISK FREE.  Try them yourself and see what the fuss is about.