Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 4, 2021 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2021 7 minutes ago, richieb said: Yes it is, I understand that. My post wasn’t at all clear. At the Pilgrimage I remember Roy telling the story of of the 1802 vs. 4 “standard” cinema subs at a customer demonstration. I believe they asked how many subs will you need in comparison to the existing four - “I’m bringing one”. You tell it so much better. So The Jubilee that's coming isn't so suitable for Cinema would be my guess. Cinema doesn't need to go as low for "full range" but needs to be +10 db in power handling over the LCR..So output down to 25 is much more.critical than being flat to 20hz is in high end consumer..The Jubilee is still going to be an eighth space "corner speaker".according to Roy, I don't imagine cinemas has much, or any need for that. They have the room for an 1802, or several, matched with and tuned with LF, MF and HF.for.the size of the Cinema. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 4, 2021 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2021 5 hours ago, Chris A said: Well, the point of the above is that for people that have been "window shopping" for a long, long time, it's probably a good time to "bite the bullet". I'm sure that Cory (Paducah, et al.) will take your money to clear the way for the new ones coming out (assuming he gets the new ones)... 😉 Chris Why wouldn't he get the new ones? Of course he will have the new ones, he will probably be a top national seller. Right now I think he's listening to the new Forte IV's he just got. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: You tell it so much better. So The Jubilee that's coming isn't so suitable for Cinema would be my guess. Cinema doesn't need to go as low for "full range" but needs to be +10 db in power handling over the LCR..So output down to 25 is much more.critical than being flat to 20hz is in high end consumer..The Jubilee is still going to be an eighth space "corner speaker".according to Roy, I don't imagine cinemas has much, or any need for that. They have the room for an 1802, or several, matched with and tuned with LF, MF and HF.for.the size of the Cinema. So the Heritage Jube is intended as a system retailed for home use with no eye to the cinema market? Whereas the “originals” were indeed a commercial design that a couple dozen smartazzes like me thought it wise to bring home? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 the Cinema theatres will grab the new Jubilee the moment a Pro Version of that speaker is out due to the ease of maintenance and reliability --- 1 woofer cabinet instead of dual or quadruple -2 way system instead of 3 -no need for a complex network - 1 driver covering 300Hz to the limit with Digital sound applications - 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted February 4, 2021 Klipsch Employees Share Posted February 4, 2021 48 minutes ago, RandyH000 said: the Cinema theatres will grab the new Jubilee the moment a Pro Version of that speaker is out due to the ease of maintenance and reliability --- 1 woofer cabinet instead of dual or quadruple -2 way system instead of 3 -no need for a complex network - 1 driver covering 300Hz to the limit with Digital sound applications - It’s a little more complicated than that 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 4, 2021 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief bonehead said: It’s a little more complicated than that A little? Not from the class I took. It's hyper complex. 3 speakers across the front, or 5. The Bonehead who taught the class was rattling of numbers and coverages and why things sounded good in the home. Everyime I think I begin to understand a concept, there is an interrelated one that makes a logical assumption completely wrong. OR, I realized that I had a lack of understanding of a fundamental concept that underlies other important concepts, and until you truly understand the underlying concept, you can't understand the important concepts that are derived from it. Why is it more complicated than that? Is it that even in a small theater you have to have 3 front speakers and The Jubilee needs corners so you cant use The Jubile as a center? They don't have the power handling to reach out and get to the magic specific spot in a theater (2/3 back center?). The issues of beaming are different? Or, "it's all about compromise?"And the compromise on The Jubilee was to maximize sound for home, not the theater? Or is it better to enjoy sausage, but not necessarily know how it's made? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 7 hours ago, dwilawyer said: Why wouldn't he get the new ones? They cost a great deal...and he runs a business that survives on cash flow. That entered my mind. I didn't want to presume he would automatically have a pair. They tie up a fair amount of capital. For decades, basically all Klipsch dealers carried only their lowest-cost lines. I assume that the cost of the stock on the floor and space was a major factor in that. Of course, all this might have to do with the dealer cost (under the table--of which I have no direct visibility into), but even at a historic low of perhaps 50% of list price ($17.5K), that's still a fair amount of money tied up in a pair of loudspeakers sitting on the floor that can't really be sold as "new". Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 11 hours ago, RandyH000 said: the Cinema theatres will grab the new Jubilee the moment a Pro Version of that speaker is out due to the ease of maintenance and reliability --- 1 woofer cabinet instead of dual or quadruple -2 way system instead of 3 -no need for a complex network - 1 driver covering 300Hz to the limit with Digital sound applications - I think we can safely say that loudspeakers of this type aren't maintenance items (usually defined as 20 or 25 years of service). No maintenance is required in that time period. If they require maintenance, then the setup limiters in the electronics are probably not being setup well enough to protect the drivers (woofer and compression driver). As far as the performance of one woofer driver vs. two then, this isn't really related to reliability, but something else. Perhaps Roy will speak on the engineering side of that subject rather than the business-sales subjects that have been addressed above. How does one produce home-theater levels of 25 Hz acoustic energy with one driver in an internally ported cabinet whose likely calculated cutoff (assuming exponential expansion in the box for greatest efficiency) is 35-40 Hz? Having them in or very near room corners (well within 1/4 wavelength) is required because after the 1/4 wavelength is reached internally in the cabinet, lower frequencies must be supported by the room corner below that cutoff frequency (and exponential horns lose a great deal of efficiency in manifold operation, a la Olson's famous 1938 JSMPE paper and book--Elements of Acoustical Engineering, 1957): The losses of translation from the box-only cutoff frequency to the room-corner-supported frequency below that point is just physics--even assuming the backwave from the ports is 100% converted in-phase into the front wave (a 3 or 6 dB recovery, depending on whether we're talking power or SPL), which is probably not a conservative assumption. Not all frequencies are recovered equally--i.e., port tuning determines which portions of the pass band are at the same or higher SPL, and which will suffer. Also, the phase relationships become important if the backwave is delayed more than 90 degrees of phase relative to the frontwave. Most importantly, what happens to the harmonic distortion below that cutoff frequency if using an exponential area expansion bass horn? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 17 hours ago, oldtimer said: Has anyone A/B listened to any of the above against any of the other, including the bargain Klipsch? Regardless of price, I have heard the jubes, but not any of the aforementioned. As a former musician, (always a musician) I know how accurate and clear the jubes are properly set up. Buzz per dollar used to be discussed in this forum a lot more than it is now. I am a big proponent of BPD. Back in the day I did audition some big magneplanars---I wasn't all that impressed, especially for the price tag. I have sampled lots of speakers and gear at Axpona, at least 3 times Vendors are kind enough to play a few tunes off my CD More than one asked if they could rip my entire DC demo after I was done I have not found any replacement for female vocal better than my 1980 LaScalas Maybe someday will sample some Jubes A lot of gear sounds great, rooms are not perfect but neither are mine When I get home and turn on my system, I don't feel motivated to replace it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, Bubo said: Maybe someday will sample some Jubes I recommend that exercise (...and also brand "X" MEHs, which is, apparently, also about to show up on the consumer showroom floors). There is a good reason why female vocals are a stressing case for a lot of loudspeakers--having to do with lobing and controlled directivity through the fundamental frequencies of the female vocal range, and it's "purity" relative to male voices. Perhaps now it will happen that Klipsch goes on the road with Jubilees to consumer hi-fi shows. 8 minutes ago, Bubo said: When I get home and turn on my system, I don't feel motivated to replace it. I believe that's the way you should feel for satisfaction. I also know that it has been dissatisfaction that drives me toward higher performing loudspeaker designs and setups. But I'm with oldtimer: my musician's ear is both a curse and a gift in this pastime, I believe. Bang for buck/buzz per dollar is the real measure for me--as an engineer. I want both fidelity and lower price. Anyone that doesn't want that...I think either has other issues or that the music fidelity isn't the primary measure of merit. It's Klipsch's job to convince its customers that the value of the loudspeaker is commensurate with its acoustic performance. Otherwise, it's something else that is being fed in the human psyche--the same thing that all other ostentatious consumption feeds. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 8 hours ago, dwilawyer said: Is it that even in a small theater you have to have 3 front speakers and The Jubilee needs corners so you cant use The Jubile as a center? They don't have the power handling to reach out and get to the magic specific spot in a theater (2/3 back center?). The issues of beaming are different? Or, "it's all about compromise?"And the compromise on The Jubilee was to maximize sound for home, not the theater? Or is it better to enjoy sausage, but not necessarily know how it's made? Theaters come in all shapes and sizes Thinking in terms of small, medium and large.....homes fall into the speakers for small theaters No corners required Mid range compression driver may be different than below Home version is dressed up as furniture, and 2 way single amp I'm guessing 10ft away is sufficient for listening xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx KPT-Jubilee/535-B 3-WAY FULLY HORN LOADED SYSTEM FOR MEDIUM TO LARGE AUDITORIUMS With auditorium space at a premium the Jubilee™ low-frequency device with its 24-inch depth is the ultimate space-saving solution. Developed by audio pioneer Paul W. Klipsch in 2001 this dual 12-inch loudspeaker system couples the horn-loaded woofers with the KPT-402-MF mid-bass Tractrix Horn coupled to the Klipsch K-1133 two-inch exit titanium compression driver. The high frequencies are easily handled by the KPT-Grand-HF-T Tractrix Horn. Dual 12-inch loudspeaker system Horn-loaded woofers Two-inch exit titanium compression driver Bi-amp configuration https://d2um2qdswy1tb0.cloudfront.net/files/Klipsch-Cinema-Brochure-2017.pdf?mtime=20170310142110&focal=none https://www.klipsch.com/pro/cinema/behind-the-screen KPT-JUBILEE/535-B DATA SHEET | V05 | 05.22.17 KPT-JUBILEE/535-B 3-WAY FULLY HORN-LOADED BEHIND THE SCREEN CINEMA SYSTEM SYSTEM SPECIFICATIONS FREQUENCY RESPONSE 1(+/- 3 dB) 45 Hz - 19 kHz FREQUENCY RANGE (-10 dB) 34 Hz - 20 kHz SENSITIVITY 2 105 dB MAXIMUM SPL 4 128 dB HORIZONTAL COVERAGE 90° +/- 20º 200 Hz - 18 kHz VERTICAL COVERAGE 60° +/- 20º 600 Hz - 19 kHz DIRECTIVITY INDEX (DI) 8 dB DIRECTIVITY FACTOR (Q) 6.3 HEIGHT 77.25” (196.2cm) WIDTH 41.5” (105.4cm) DEPTH 24.5” (62.2cm) WEIGHT 260 lbs. (118 kg) RECOMMENDED USE AVAILABLE VERSIONS UP TO 350 SEATS (approximately 5000 ft 2 or 465 m2) SYSTEM COMPONENTS WIth auditorium space at a premium, the Jubilee, with its 24” depth KPT-KHJ-LF low frequency device, is the ultimate space-saving solution. This dual 12” loudspeaker system couples the horn loaded woofers with the KPT-402-MF mid-bass Tractrix® horn coupled to the Klipsch-1133 2” exit titanium driver. The high frequencies are easily handled by the KPT-Grand-HF-N Tractrix horn 1 Frequency response behind a screen relative to X-curve and with active processing applied 2 SPL at 1M, half-space anechoic with 2.83V input 3 AES standard, continuous pink noise, 6 dB peaks 4 Calculated at 1M half-space at power handling input RECOMMENDED MINIMUM AMPLIFIER POWER TRANSDUCER AMPLIFIER POWER RATING LF 800W into 4 ohms HF/MF 450W into 4 ohms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Cool post @Bubo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 58 minutes ago, Chris A said: I recommend that exercise (...and also brand "X" MEHs, which is, apparently, also about to show up on the consumer showroom floors). MEH ? Quote good reason why female vocals are a stressing case for a lot of loudspeakers--having to do with lobing and controlled directivity through the fundamental frequencies of the female vocal range, and it's "purity" relative to male voices. Perhaps now it will happen that Klipsch goes on the road with Jubilees to consumer hi-fi shows. Would love to hear a pair If I was running their MKTG, I would hit 15-20 hotels all over the US, and rent good size space to set up gear for demos and charge a nominal fee like $20 to get in inc some bottled water and snacks or sandwiches etc. Have the local dealers there to help and write orders and allocate via zip code unless customer objects. Would invite critics to attend if they are friendly. Maybe one room ea for each speaker type AB switch for tubes and SS 5 rooms, 2 amps ea, TT, CD player and PC ea, let customers bring their own music, some will be crap... but such is life I would feature the New Classics aka the Heritage line updated. Then take it on the road world wide aka Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Tokyo, London, Paris, Milan, Rome, Berlin and Munich maybe Hamburg etc........Miami covers a lot of the Caribbean and SA Quote It's Klipsch's job to convince its customers that the value of the loudspeaker is commensurate with its acoustic performance. Otherwise, it's something else that is being fed in the human psyche--the same thing that all other ostentatious consumption feeds. One time visiting my mother, she told me my sister had a $4,000 purse delivered to my mother's house ahead of her visit between cities over the weekend. I asked my mother what she thought of the purse, "she paid $3,800 too much" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Chris A said: There is a good reason why female vocals are a stressing case for a lot of loudspeakers--having to do with lobing and controlled directivity through the fundamental frequencies of the female vocal range, and it's "purity" relative to male voices. Poe on this track completely disappears on lots of "high end" speakers, unintelligible on others in showrooms.... Few more test tracks I use One minute into Skylark I have decided if I want to listen any further Noemie Wolfs with square wave generator Nicks with square wave generator quality demo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 MEH = multiple entry horn. Picture the 402 with multiple drivers attached, not just a single attached at the rear entry - 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 34 minutes ago, Bubo said: ...Maybe one room ea for each speaker type AB switch... Those hotel rooms at Lone Star Audio Fest (LSAF) now run about $500-$1000 a day. At Rocky Mountain Audio Fest (RMAF) they're at least 10x that amount. The financial math isn't in favor of lots of rooms. You need lots of people to recover the expenses in room rental alone, and in this age of global pandemics, that's a problem. That's why loudspeakers usually sound lousy at hotels: the rental price tag doesn't allow for proper setups/dial-ins. That's why Motel 6, etc. in Hope is a much better deal, but the rooms are usually a bit too small (even in the US). 1 hour ago, Bubo said: More than one asked if they could rip my entire DC demo after I was done I would be interested in your list of artists/songs/tracks. (PM me if bashful about posting it.) I try to sample a wide variety of music for this type of thing. 34 minutes ago, Bubo said: ..."she paid $3,800 too much"... 😉 Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 34 minutes ago, richieb said: MEH = multiple entry horn. Picture the 402 with multiple drivers attached, not just a single attached at the rear entry - You don't have to picture anything...here's one that uses a Klipsch-produced horn and box (a modified KPT-305): Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 ^^^^^ Thanks for a photo of a picture - 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 19 hours ago, Chris A said: Where are JC's clone bass bins? Is that what you're using? Chris Right now prototypes K403/B&CDE82TN / JC Jubs two x K31 12"s / HLS 1502. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Chris A said: Those hotel rooms at Lone Star Audio Fest (LSAF) now run about $500-$1000 a day. At Rocky Mountain Audio Fest (RMAF) they're at least 10x that amount. The financial math isn't in favor of lots of rooms. You need lots of people to recover the expenses in room rental alone, and in this age of global pandemics, that's a problem. That's why loudspeakers usually sound lousy at hotels: the rental price tag doesn't allow for proper setups/dial-ins. That's why Motel 6, etc. in Hope is a much better deal, but the rooms are usually a bit too small (even in the US). I bet I could sell at least $100K per event Presentations with Demos Could probably skip the strippers to save money Quote I would be interested in your list of artists/songs/tracks. (PM me if bashful about posting it.) I try to sample a wide variety of music for this type of thing. I'll have to find the list in my pc, or scan my paper one Have a storm coming in I need to deal with. Really pleasant LP if you can stream HQ IMHO She is a Big Deal, Danish Agnes Obel Citizen of Glass A little live Ear Candy, Paris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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