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Chris A

Jubilee News

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A thread to collect all the "new news" concerning Jubilees--mostly the Jubilees in home hi-fi listening rooms. This includes links to threads on this forum and perhaps other forums of notable interest to those interested. 

 

Jubilees are special loudspeakers within the full lineup of Klipsch loudspeaker models. They have been acknowledged many times as the finest loudspeaker that Klipsch makes by those that have heard them (not necessarily by those that are wanting to sell the other Klipsch loudspeaker models), and they are the official successor to the loudspeaker that created the company: the Klipschorn II, re-dubbed by Paul Klipsch as the "Jubilee" in honor of the 50 years of continuous manufacture and sales of the original Klipschorn. 

 

Some threads of notable interest...first, the unofficial Jubilee buyers guide pinned to the top of this subforum:

 

An owner's report on the first hundred days of ownership:

And another (by yours truly):

A thread on dialing-in a stock two-way Jubilee (K-691 driver) using Roy's anechoic chamber settings for a Xilica crossover:

The history of the manufacture of the first 2 two-way (home version) Jubilees for @Coytee and @mikebse2a3 (back when Chief Bonehead was still "Bodcaw Boy"):

And the first setup and listening to mikebse2a3's Jubs:

And a more recent but nevertheless notable thread on Q's & A''s of Jubilees:

 

Chris

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More recently, there have been many new owners within the past 3 years, many of which have migrated to the Xilica XP series crossovers.  These DSP crossovers have even more performance than the original ElectroVoice Dx38 crossover and a much better price than the original Dx38 (new).  If you are considering acquiring a new set of Klipsch Jubilees in the two-way home hi-fi version, and have wondered what 2" compression drivers that have been used with them to increase their performance over the stock K-691 drivers as supplied by Klipsch, feel free to PM me for the details of those and the settings used for those drivers on a K-402 horn. 

 

Additionally, there has been a great amount of DSP crossover work done on increasing the fidelity of the Jubilee using stock and upgraded compression drivers, notably to reduce the phase response growth and group delay spikes/growth.  These new settings also entail the "shortening down" of the K-402 horn on top of the KPT-KHJ-LF bass bin in order to move the two horn's axes (bass bin, K-402) closer together to reduce the vertical spacing of the horn mouths in order to reduce the group delay spikes and perhaps the tighter coupling of the two ways of the loudspeaker in order to flatten the phase even further:

Chris

 

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Almost forgot: since Jubilees are corner horns by design (but able to be used in false corners to move them out away from the room corners), here is a frequently-asked questions (FAQ) thread on corner horn performance and how to set them up to achieve that performance:

 

Perhaps other Jubilee owners will post their informative news of Jubilees or links to their favorite threads on Jubilees: how they use them, what works well connected to them (electronics) and what type of room geometries and room acoustic treatments that seem to work well (preferably with measurements to show how well they work). 

 

Chris

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I'm late relatively speaking to the Jube owners club. I read through some of the "Coyoteeo and Miketn" thread created by Bodcaw boy (AKA Chief Bonehead). And for the life of me I still can't understand why for a nominal up charge they can't build the bass bins out of nice veneered ply. As long as the customer understands it will be delivered raw and with no edge banding(i.e. finish it yourself). They could even leave the top and bottom plates un flush routered and then when edge band veneered they would look nice a la the KlipschHorn collar pieces.

Then I read through most of RSRVMAN's thread and it mentions that one pair was made with veneer and was a PITA and the plant manager said never again. Sorry I still don't get it. Of course I'm not there doing the work but this does not seem insurmountable to me. Are they really that much harder to build than KHorns?

Oh.... and to quote a good man known around these parts "They sound OK":)

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1 hour ago, babadono said:

Then I read through most of RSRVMAN's thread and it mentions that one pair was made with veneer and was a PITA and the plant manager said never again.

That was Travis's Jubilees...now in Luther Ward's abode near San Antonio, IIRC...

 

jubs1.jpg

 

It seemed like it took over a year and a half to two years for Travis to finally receive them after ordering them.  I remember Roy mentioning that the Hope production supervisor "wasn't amused" by the myriad issues they encountered trying to get all the pieces and wood grains properly selected, cut and assembled without any glue lines or non-pretty edges showing.  I can see why they probably don't want to do that again. 

 

The center panel veneer option (~$100, IIRC) seems like a good compromise approach.  However, I have covered my center panels with Sonofiber panels in order to cut down on nearfield reflections from the K-402 and dual bass bin horn mouths.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

One of the things that occurred this past spring is that I found out just how good the Jubilees can perform, contrasted against the prior 11 years of ownership in which I used the provided (canned) DSP crossover settings--and then incremental upgrades over the past 5-7 years in DSP settings, etc. that I found through measurement and iterative improvements. 

 

When I stumbled on the first order crossover filter effects on overall sound quality about a year ago, it completely changed my entire outlook of these loudspeakers.  When I found how to eliminate the phase growth at the crossover interference band via moving the K-402 listening axis down closer to the bass bin mouths, those two changes together enabled the final game-changing performance. I'm now floored by how well these loudspeakers sound.  Their acoustic measurements also indicate why they are sounding so good.  It was a nominally 5% increase in overall sound quality--that effectively doubled the subjective engagement and listening pleasure of them. 

 

This is why I have been talking about the "fractional order crossovers" (i.e., Danley-style) and shortening down the KPT-402-HF assemblies toward the bass bins.  I think that most Jubilee owners are sitting on a gold mine of unrealized sound quality potential that they haven't yet heard. 

 

I'm convinced that this is part of that 5% that PWK used to talk about (as Roy reported).  It's that last 5% of performance that brings so much subjective sound improvement.

 

Chris

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On 11/20/2019 at 2:18 PM, Chris A said:

 

 

This is why I have been talking about the "fractional order crossovers" (i.e., Danley-style) and shortening down the KPT-402-HF assemblies toward the bass bins.  I think that most Jubilee owners are sitting on a gold mine of unrealized sound quality potential that they haven't yet heard. 

 

I'm convinced that this is part of that 5% that PWK used to talk about (as Roy reported).  It's that last 5% of performance that brings so much subjective sound improvement.

 

Chris


I would have to agree with Chris.    Lowering the 402's and applying a fractional order crossover was a game changer and I do not see myself changing back.

Since learning how to utilize the fractional order crossover concept I have also applied this to my 1502 subwoofer as well..

Jubes.jpg

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I think it's good also to show MikeTn's listening room (a garage that he's upgraded very nicely).  (Perhaps other Jub owners might also post pix of their setups here, too.)

 

Zebrawood Jubilee new room rs.jpg

KPT-1502-HLS prototype #1 pict-13 rs.jpg

KPT-1502-HLS prototype #1 pict-6 rs.jpg

KPT-1502-HLS prototype #1 pict-3 rs.jpg

KPT-1502-HLS prototype #1 pict-1 rs.jpg

 

Here's a link to the thread where Mike customized his K-402s (10 years ago--my how time flies...):

Chris

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On 11/23/2019 at 12:10 PM, parlophone1 said:

Is that a stirofoam acoustic absorbers or something else?

 

I will step out on a limb here and say there are what are typically called skyline diffusors. You can find a little info here:

 

https://www.acousticfields.com/whats-difference-skyline-sound-diffuser-quadratic-diffuser/

 

 

 

 

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On 11/20/2019 at 12:18 PM, Chris A said:

This is why I have been talking about the "fractional order crossovers"

 

Can you describe these again for us readers (or just me) who missed any previous details.

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I believe, @Chris A, please correct me if I'm wrong that:

 

Fractional order = Danley style = zeroth order = PEQ only

 

Meaning you don't use a more traditional Butterworth, Bessel, linkwitz-Riley XO which induces phase issues and in turn requires more PEQ work to "fix" it. Gross over simplification I'm sure, as I am still learning. But you get the idea.

 

Not sure if the screen capture of my Xilica  below will help. I was attempting a crossover around 550Hz only using the two PEQs circled in aqua to bring down the signal in a gentle curve creating a high pass filter.

 

I've since moving to a 275 xo point with very promising results.

 

420489783_zeroXO.thumb.jpg.f20e6f6a842af4fd46a345b8f3902f90.jpg

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Yes, a "fractional order" crossover filter is using the natural response of the drivers/horns themselves to determine the slope of the resultant low-pass or high-pass curve, then uses attenuating PEQs in a DSP crossover (if active crossover, or notch filters if passive--like the Danley Synergies) to attenuate whatever extra SPL response that the combined drivers/horns have so that they combine to have flat SPL. 

 

The reason why it's "fractional order" is because the resulting response slopes are not multiples of 6 dB/octave, rather they tend to be something like 10 dB/octave or 20 dB/octave, etc.  The key here is that you first put the horn(s) and drivers together, then measure their natural response without crossover filters or PEQs, then determine the best place to cross based on the response of the drivers themselves to sum flat in SPL and zero phase shifts.

 

Since there is no induced phase shift at the crossover band due to the electrical filters themselves, their combined output sums coherently if the time delay of the drivers/horns are matched to each other (which is easy to do with a DSP crossover simply by adding delay to the drivers/horns that are leading in phase/time of arrival at the listening position)--and they are nominally within 1/4 wavelength (90 degrees) physically at the crossover frequency in vertical or horizontal distance.

 

The ear can hear that as if there is a single source of sound playing--a "full range" driver that's horn loaded, with all the inherent advantages of being horn loaded, i.e., full range directivity control vs. frequency, high efficiency, and inaudible modulation distortion, up to very high SPL. 
 

Chris

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Thanks for your explanations. I now understand about specifically combining the driver roll-off with the PEQ slope, but I am reading the implication that a 6db/oct PEQ filter does not add phase shift, while the named 6db/oct filter slopes do cause phase shift. Is that correct?

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1 hour ago, Khornukopia said:

I am reading the implication that a 6db/oct PEQ filter does not add phase shift, while the named 6db/oct filter slopes do cause phase shift.

Yes. 

 

Here is a plot of SPL and phase vs. frequency for a "phase link" three-way loudspeaker that B&O made in the 1980s.  This plot shows a 180 degree phase shift from the higher frequency driver to the lower frequency driver (second order or 12 dB/octave slope of the attenuating electrical filters).  [Note that this plot is ignoring the electrical and electrical-acoustic response of the drivers themselves in the enclosure.]:

 

uniphase_components.png

 

The PEQs in the DSP crossover, and so-called notch filters (used extensively in Danley Synergy crossovers to EQ the output) first displace the phase slightly in one direction or the other--depending on if it is attenuating or boosting--then return the phase back to that before the filter became active (in the frequency domain).  Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley, etc. filters all introduce permanent phase shifts, delaying the lower frequency drivers relative to the higher frequency drivers.  The amount of phase shift is a function of the order of the crossover filters: the higher the crossover filter order, the bigger the phase shifts.  The rule of thumb is 90 degrees of phase shift per order of the filter.  So a fourth order filter (24 dB/octave) will cause a phase shift of 360 degrees (4 x 90 degrees). 

 

SO even with the phase-link design shown above, the loudspeaker is introducing 360 degrees of phase lag on the woofer relative to the tweeter frequencies.  That phase shift turns out to be audible if the loudspeaker has directivity control of its output so that it isn't spraying acoustic energy over all nearfield objects in-room.  Full range directivity allows the listener to hear the direct-arrival energy over a wider band than direct radiating loudspeakers do (which only have directivity at higher frequencies).  If you can hear the direct arrival energy clearly distinguished from the nearfield reflections, then you can hear the effects of the phase shifts of the crossover filters.  This effect is the "subconscious effect" that I talked about in the thread on that subject.

 

Chris

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Nice sub, Mike!  The wood is beautiful, but I’d bet you often have to remind people not to put anything on its top or its “shelves”.

 

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I believe that "3-way" setup was in reality a 2-way with a third driver emitting the difference signal between the two actual ways.

 

At any rate, it seems with casual consideration that a "notch" filter broad enough to protect the high-frequency drivers' voice coils from excessive low-frequency energy would wind up shifting phase at the crossing frequency no differently than a typical filter anyway.

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9 hours ago, glens said:

At any rate, it seems with casual consideration that a "notch" filter broad enough to protect the high-frequency drivers' voice coils from excessive low-frequency energy would wind up shifting phase at the crossing frequency no differently than a typical filter anyway.

Why do you think this statement is true?  Based on what information/data? 

 

I think that you will be amazed at the difference in sound correcting for phase through the crossover interference bands, but only if your loudspeakers have full-range directivity down to the Schroeder frequency of the room, and early reflections are controlled in order to keep the direct/reflected ratio high enough for the human hearing system to discern the difference in sound quality.  But once you do this, the results are as described in the link above (and repeated just below):

 

Chris

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2 hours ago, Chris A said:

Why do you think this statement is true?  Based on what information/data? 

 

 

I've been assigned a project which will occupy the bulk of the day.  I'll be using power tools so will only be able to consider this request on the side.  But I will.  At the start, however, I'll answer with a question:  What's the difference between one broad, low Q notch covering from say 10 Hz to 400 Hz, and two separate filters high- and low-passing at those frequencies (in terms of what they're doing to phase migration)?  In other words, why not merely "wind up" the phase at the bottom with a high-pass so the unwinding of the low-pass brings it back around?

 

(But even 10 is much too high, IMO, for signal going to the HF driver...)

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"...to protect the high-frequency drivers' voice coils from excessive low-frequency energy".  (The Danley SH-50 doesn't do this.) This is precisely where you are succumbing to expectation bias.

 

"In God We Trust, Everyone Else Bring Data".   I've tested it and I've presented the data (...perhaps you missed it).  I'm going to assume that you have no data. 

 

I'll make you a deal: I'll respond to your further assertions on this subject when they have actual data backing it in the post.  I believe that you've missed something extremely important in your assumptions.  No amount of "answering questions with questions" is going to change that.

 

Chris

 

 

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On 11/25/2019 at 4:49 AM, Chris A said:

first put the horn(s) and drivers together, then measure their natural response without crossover filters or PEQs, then determine the best place to cross based on the response of the drivers themselves to sum flat in SPL

 

So this is part of the reason that the Klipschorns with the simple crossover networks sound good to so many people.

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