Sub-10 / Sub-12 / RPW-10 Repair Blog

[The_Tinkerer]

Good to see that you are doing well and getting back into the hobby u love. My parts arrive today from DigiKey so I plan on getting back into repair. If you get a moment take a look at the photo on the PSU board in front of the BASH board. I'm wondering about Q6 and should I repair along with the Q5 repair. The area looks a little funny to me (discoloration).

 

You can probably use my readings to update the PDC into the second version. Your schematic was correct (and greatly appreciated) just the values indicate (2) versions.

 

I also built and simple current limit light bulb rig and mounted above my work bench area. Planning to install a 250 in the socket which should be sufficient (~2.2Amps which should be good since the AMP uses a 2AMP fuse)

Voltage Assessment

Location	Voltage	Comments
Big Cap	90~97V
U4 & U5	22~25VDC	On the AMP section
		At idle the Rails should have 5V w/Vol at 0
Pin5 BASH	12V	To Pin12 (The BASH has full 90V Rail so be careful)
R70 & R71	5V	2x 150ohm resistors that feed the Mosfets (Bash Board is good)

 

Here's a table I started of the various voltage test points. Let me know (if u don't mind) if I have this right and other places I should evaluate before heading to signal evaluation.

 

Thanks (The Tinkerer)

[The_Tinkerer]

Well,

I have re-capped the board. I tested a few of the ones removed and have not found any really bad ones.

Replaced: C72 & C74 (these are near the PDC board and looked burned and covered in glue) -> tested at 103.6nF

Replaced: C58 (470uF --> tested at 484)

Replaced: C48 & C53. Purchased polar by mistake then moved and inserted NP. Should have known in hindsight since this comes from the signal

Replaced: C41,C45 C47,C44 C46,C28. This group is the 100uF/35V, 47uF/50V grouping that smooths the AMP rails I believe

 

I completed the Q5 upgrade. ngen33r reco is spot on to handle SMD's. As a bit of side note I purchased a DSO150 Oscilloscope that you have to build. It was a great project to get back into electronics before putting parts on the Sub10. This scope required removal of a SMD shunt. By first using an exacto knife to cut the leg on one side and then using heat (soldering iron) along with tweezers it comes right off. The Q5 transistor was done the same - cut the 2x legs (E/B) then a little heat to the collector and off it came. To install, this was tricky and requires (6) steps (IMO) - not for the faint of heart: 

1) Cut the legs to desired "equal" lengths (mine were 8-10mm)

2) shape the legs to the desired geometry... basically putting the legs on the T0-92 in the same configuration/spacing as the SOT,

3) curl the end of the collector leg (90deg) with a pair of needle nose. You want a "VERY SMALL" curl to help anchor into the solder of step4

4) put a little solder on the board on the single leg/pad (collector)

5) put a little solder on the end of the other 2 legs (base/emitter) of the TO-92. Now attach the collector first to the pad and then the base then the emitter "using tweezers in one hand to hold the TO-92 and the soldering iron in the other" - this is the reason to put solder on the legs of the Emitter/Base.

6) Tested the continuity (collector -> C25, Base -> R55, Emitter -> C33) to make sure everything is good and also that the TO-92 is secure (no movement).

 

More to come...

 

Okay, more to add... I have replaced the 4.7uF caps in Audio section near the secondary board input connector. I orginally replaced with polar caps then noticed they should be NP. Also completed my current limiter (courtesy of ngen33r) with a 100W bulb. Tested the continuity to make sure the Hot (Black) goes completely through the bulb to the black alligator clip and the white (neutral) goes from the wall outlet to the white alligator clip. Put the clips together and the bulb is nice and bright. One more visual check and continuity tests and then time for power-up.

Edited April 8, 2021 by The_Tinkerer
Add pin continuity

[Can’t Solder]

On 11/24/2019 at 2:20 AM, ngen33r said:

Hello All

I have been repairing Klipsch subwoofer amps for about 15 years as a hobby. I have decided to start blogging my repairs and eventually do videos of each one. This thread is intended to be a blog and a resource for information. I will try to answer repair questions as best I can. Comments and tips are also welcome, If you do not have the experience or the tools, PLEASE do not attempt any of these repairs. You will only end up damaging the board and it will end up costing more for a tech to repair the damage. If you do not have a high quality vacuum desoldering station (Hakko or Weller) and a current limited mains supply, you should not be working on these amps. These subwoofers do not have any user serviceable parts inside. If you open up the sub or attempt any repair you see in this thread, you are doing so at your own risk!!!

 

The PDC board 660038RA (main supply control) is almost always the main failure mode of these amps. The glue that was used becomes conductive and kills the board and the fets (planned obsolescence?). These boards are typically made in China and are super easy to damage. If you don't have a desoldering tool you MUST cut the board off and remove the legs from the thru holes one by one. Once the thru holes are damaged the repair becomes a difficult hack job unless you have a thru hole repair kit.

 

The other most frequent failures are the Bash control board and Q5. If Q5 is SOT-23, it needs to be replaced with a TO-92 2N4401. This mod was done on later revisions most likely due to warranty claims. 

 

I have made a schematic of the PDC board and I also have made replacement boards (I do not sell or supply these boards). Sometimes they are so badly burnt, they have to just be replaced.

 

ALWAYS REMEMBER TO UNPLUG OR SWITCH OFF YOUR AMPS. CAPACITORS HAVE A LIFESPAN AND WHEN POWER IS APPLIED THE CLOCK IS TICKING. THE AUTO ON/OFF FUNCTION DOES NOT PREVENT THIS ON MOST MODELS!!!!!!!

 

 

[Can’t Solder]

Ngen33r, where are you located?  I bought 2 used Klipsch sub 10 subwoofers ( with quintet III) from Goodwill auction.  I liked the first speaker set with the Quintet III so well that I got another set with the sub 10.  Both worked fine, until the second started blowing fuses.  Now my first one has no sound, but the power stays on.  They are probably not worth fixing.  I contacted Klipsch, but they won’t give me a schematic on them.  I probably can’t fix them anyway?  From what your writing, it sounds like there is no way I can cheaply fix them?

[The_Tinkerer]

Okay, next installment for those interested... After installation of the parts listed in the previous reports, I followed this approach:

1) Visual inspection of Top & Bottom side of PCB

2) Continuity check of primary FET's, PDC pinout and Q5 from the Pin side of the PCB

3) Power up with CL Bulb system with Black line to the end terminal and white line to the terminal labeled N. At this point the bulb glowed bright and contained the issue with the board. I had a 100W bulb in the socket. The board check'd out in step@2, however I missed a continuity check point where Pin4 on the PDC DID NOT attach to Gnd. As you can see from the diagram above Pin 4 should be attached to the source on Q3, however something was wrong (probably a bad through hole when I pulled the board out). The source on Q3 was allowed to float. I connected Pin4 on the PDC to the "pin" near Q3 (there are 2 of them as you can see above) with a small jumper wire. This put Q3 source to ground.  I retested the continuity and everything checked out. Re-connected the power source and the Bulb was out... HEY HEY HEY!

4) Performed voltage assessment at the various test points listed in this table. 

Location	Target Reading(?)	My Board	Comments
Big Cap C58	90~97V	152V	This filters the High voltage from the Bridge. C58+ (square) to TFPin2
TF Pin1	?	152V	High voltage Primary Pin1 (+) to Pin2 (GnD)
PDC Pin2	90V		90+V between Pin2 & Pin1
PDC Pin5		+25.5V	+ Rail between Pin5 & Pin1
PDC Pin8		- 25.8V	-  Rail between Pin8 & Pin1
BASH Pin5	12V		Pin5 (Vcc) to Pin11 (GnD) (The BASH has full 90V Rail so be careful)
U4 & U5	22~25VDC	26.4V	Across the Fets from the BASH board. These set the +/- ~15VDC If you don’t have this the PDC is not working. (Chk DIAC)
R70 & R71	~5V	5.4V	2x 150ohm resistors that feed the AMP Mosfets otherside of Board (5x Fets) (Bash Board is good). At idle the Rails should have 5V w/Vol at 0. If voltage is <1V BASH not working
Spkr Term

 

I can;t explain the 152V vs. 90~97V, I need to recheck... however I have target voltages in the AMP section. So tommorrow, the plan is to re-check the Main supply high voltage, put the board back together and insert a Fuse and test with a signal. I removed the 4ohm spkr from the cabinet to use as a load and will also put the system output on the scope.

[ngen33r]

I never measure anything on the PDC. I check the voltages on the other side of the transformer. Make sure you get ~90V at the large filter cap. ~5V at the mosfets at 0 volume and you can check the vregs both in and out. In, I believe is ~35V. You can also check the supply for the bash board also around 35V and check that the BASH is getting 12V at the power pin.

[The_Tinkerer]

Well interesting times on this AMP. For some reason as I showed the voltage on the the Big Cap (C58) and TF Pin1 were 152V instead of 90~97V. This bothered me and ties back to a posting by Dr. Vince who had output of 114V I believe. I dismissed it a bit because I had 26.4V across U4&U5 and 5.4V across the two resistors R70&R71 and the light bulb was off (happy). Well after leaving it on for a bit and then turning off and return the next day something happened:

The voltage is still high on the Big Cap & TFPin1 165V

The voltage across U4&U5 is 24.7V

The voltage across R70&R71 is 0.5V

R51 lit up in the middle (significant glow)

 

I think Q5 and Z2 went out (beginning to think that Q5 & Z2 went out because of the PDC board). Going to replace the active components on the PDC and then check the resistors which should be good. Following this going to replace Q5 & Z2 and try again.

 

Also looking at the rectifier circuit part, don't know what the components are next to the 230V shunt but they appear to be both shorted when I ohm test in both directions (duh these are 0ohm resistors used as subs on the circuit board machine to make it easier to switch between 115V & 230V systems during fab). HOWEVER, I'm still not sure what reduces the voltage from 165V -> ~95V after the rectifier. ... Interesting revelation, I don't believe there is a voltage reducer before the PDC board for the following reasons: 1) The Big Cap is rated at 470uF 200V which will handle the 165VDC coming off the ACDC full wave rectifier (if using 115VAC), 2) The board has a place for a 2nd Big cap, if you put another (470uF 200) in there (in parallel) the capacitance goes to 400V which (interestingly) will handle the 325VDC if using 230VAC like Europe, 3) The Diode D12 on the PDC is rated @100V which matches with the 90+V on the BASH. I may be off base but it's fishy

Edited April 22, 2021 by The_Tinkerer

[ynk1121]

My sub was totally dead.  I had 25.5v at the regulators and 0.5v at the resistors.  I changed out Q5 and now I have 27v at the regulators and 6.5v at the resistors.  I'm actually getting sound now but it's waaaay too low. It's just barely audible at max gain so something still isn't right.  Open to ideas? 

 

[ynk1121]

Nevermind, was reading the wrong cap.  Cap closet to the bash is 87v.

Edited April 21, 2021 by ynk1121

[jcmeyer5]

This is an awesome thread, however I am going to heed the warning and not try this repair myself (SUB-10).  However, I still want it repaired.  Is there anyone on this forum that does that kind of work for hire?

[ichigo13th]

I just recently received a Synergy SUB-12 from a family member. It's in great condition but upon powering up seems to produce no noise at all. I've tested it every way I could think but the sub will not move even though the LED indicator is solid blue (a.k.a. receiving a signal unless I don't know how to read). I'm a little uneasy tackling a soldering job this large/precise, and would like to just buy a replacement plate amp or external amp. Does anyone have any suggestions based on the power requirements of the original amp? Ideally I'd like to avoid the headache of having to rip it apart and try not to destroy the existing board. Looks like BASH Klipsch replacements or the BASH 300S are both around ~$180... Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!! - Will

[Jheath88]

Anyone on this thread know where I can get Sub10 repaired.   Same issues sound like a lot of folks having.

[The_Tinkerer]

ichigo

 

The blue led in the front is simply a power on indicator, has no reference to whether the unit is receiving a signal.  The BASH 300 is a direct replacement for the Sub10 from Klipsch. The Sub10 is a lower power unit but still a good one and should be able to drive the 12" woofer.  You can find for $159 at Parts-Express (Dayton)

[ngen33r]

On 4/10/2021 at 5:34 PM, Can’t Solder said:

Ngen33r, where are you located?  I bought 2 used Klipsch sub 10 subwoofers ( with quintet III) from Goodwill auction.  I liked the first speaker set with the Quintet III so well that I got another set with the sub 10.  Both worked fine, until the second started blowing fuses.  Now my first one has no sound, but the power stays on.  They are probably not worth fixing.  I contacted Klipsch, but they won’t give me a schematic on them.  I probably can’t fix them anyway?  From what your writing, it sounds like there is no way I can cheaply fix them?

Cleveland, OH

They can be repaired, but depends on the problem and what you feel they are worth. I am swamped and not taking anything new until I can catch up.

[centaurojz]

Hi Klipsch community

Newby here, wondering if anyone has the Service Manual (schematic) for my subwoofer Sub 10 or SUB10S.

Thanks.

[ngen33r]

On 5/17/2021 at 11:45 AM, centaurojz said:

Hi Klipsch community

Newby here, wondering if anyone has the Service Manual (schematic) for my subwoofer Sub 10 or SUB10S.

Thanks.

 

 

I haven't found one yet. 

[pcharm129]

Hi. Can anyone tell me where i can get a replacement transformer for an RPW-10 (Indigo 500175 Rev 0, for Indigo board# 600142 REV 3)?

Edited May 29, 2021 by pcharm129

[ngen33r]

On 5/28/2021 at 12:22 AM, pcharm129 said:

Hi. Can anyone tell me where i can get a replacement transformer for an RPW-10 (Indigo 500175 Rev 0, for Indigo board# 600142 REV 3)?

You can't. Either rewind it yourself or trash the amp. In servicing 100's of these I have only seen 1 that failed.

[pcharm129]

19 hours ago, ngen33r said:

You can't. Either rewind it yourself or trash the amp. In servicing 100's of these I have only seen 1 that failed.

😩 Very sad to hear that. But thank you for the info!

[ngen33r]

23 hours ago, pcharm129 said:

😩 Very sad to hear that. But thank you for the info!

Where are you located? I do have a scrap bin that may have one. You just pay the shipping. It's worthless to me.