glens Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 Never done it but would determine the frequency both drivers have the same crossover -[whatever]dB (easier to determine if symmetrical slopes?), generate that frequency only, and set the gain on the HF to output the same volume each individually as my starting point, if using only an SPL-measuring device. As my starting point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 Yesterday I tried the balancing so all four drivers were the same and it did not sound good at all. Went back to the 2.5db plus on the 402's and the magic was back. As an aside here I had an LSI buyer over the other day and I never let people hear the big boy until they decide to buy or not buy what they came here for. They always do buy in case you were wondering. I mentioned that the same K-43 woofer in his LSI's were the same exact ones in my S-MWM bass bins. The amazing difference that size and distance makes in a single fold horn has to be heard to be believed. I lack the engineering back ground to say why the 402's need to be run at a higher db than the bass bins but my ears tell me this is true. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panelhead Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 The bass bins laying on the concrete floor really couples the wave launch to boost the bin output. If you stood them up, it might be better flat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 There is a pallet between them and the floor but close enough I am sure to make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panelhead Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 The pallet has most likey compressed two inches by now. It was bulging in the fall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 16 minutes ago, Panelhead said: The bass bins laying on the concrete floor really couples the wave launch to boost the bin output. If you stood them up, it might be better flat. He's already measuring the coupling that takes effect correct? The way I read it, he's going 2dB hot in overall output on the tops when compared to the bottoms including boundary gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 Dave, are you using the same mic placement when measuring the two or are you moving the mic relative to each speaker when measuring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 I measure each unit and hold the mike by hand in appx the same place relative to the other one. I mute the set not being measured and then put the mike right in the mouth of the horn flush with the front edge and centered in the cavity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 11 minutes ago, Dave A said: I measure each unit and hold the mike by hand in appx the same place relative to the other one. I mute the set not being measured and then put the mike right in the mouth of the horn flush with the front edge and centered in the cavity. What? Your bass bin has 2 mouths correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 Why yes they do but I only measure one, the center of the opening on the same side of each bin. And then the center of the 402's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dave A said: Why yes they do but I only measure one, the center of the opening on the same side of each bin. And then the center of the 402's. There's your answer then. You're not accounting for the output provided by the other horn on the bass bin. That's why you need the 402 hotter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 14 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: There's your answer then. You're not accounting for the output provided by the other horn on the bass bin. That's why you need the 402 hotter. Bingo! And @Dave A buy yourself a mic stand. They're relatively inexpensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 1 minute ago, babadono said: Bingo! And @Dave A buy yourself a mic stand. They're relatively inexpensive You mean spend $30 when I can hold it for free??!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 Yes. It will get "you" out of the measurement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panelhead Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 Plus you really need to measure out in the room. The effects from floor loading are more pronounced. The output at the mouth should be increased, but not relative to 15’ away. That boundary effect continues all the way to the listening position. Same concrete floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Dave A said: Why yes they do but I only measure one, the center of the opening on the same side of each bin. And then the center of the 402's. Nice to know that info this late in the game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 6 minutes ago, glens said: Nice to know that info this late in the game! Gotta play detective Glen and not take anything for granted. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 44 minutes ago, Panelhead said: Plus you really need to measure out in the room. Uhhh...I wouldn't do that. The only time to move the microphone away from 1m distance (in-room) is when trying to dial in a subwoofer, and even then you're probably going to get better results if you leave the microphone distance at 1 m and live with the pressure zone/nearfield issues. The critical distance of the room (a not-damped room) at the crossover frequency with the K-402 and MWM-type bin (high directivity index for both of these horns at ~400-500 Hz) is probably on the order of 2-3 m, so you're going to be measuring diffuse reflections in-room if you try to measure farther away than 1m using something like continuous pink noise. The only way to measure farther back and avoid overwhelming reflections in-room is to use upsweeps ("chirps")--like the room correction software applications use. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 I don't think I'd put much faith at all into something hand held. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 18 minutes ago, rplace said: I don't think I'd put much faith at all into something hand held. It'd be alright for a quick spot-check or similar use. Definitely not for any part of a comprehensive, iterative process except the very initial stages, perhaps. Although I'm sure there are as many people with perfect muscle memory as there are with perfect aural memory... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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