artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 37 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said: Show me two amps with the same circuit, one homely and a mess, the other neat and tidy in an attractive chassis. The second one is 1k more than the first one, that’s the one I’m ponying up for. And it's clear you have never been in a recording studio. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, artto said: And it's clear you have never been in a recording studio. Irrelevant. My point is that some people will pay for things that look a little nicer. I’m not alone on this one… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 40 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: I mean really if you look at the name it kinda clearly says it all "direct digital feedback" "Class Z ™ direct digital feedback amplifier (DDFA™) technology enables switching amplifier solutions capable of producing a sound quality to challenge that of the very best linear amplifier." There are actually "two" components (ideas) in that DDFA terminology which apparently get overlooked or misunderstood. "Direct Digital" and "Digital Feedback". Neither of which are employed in virtually any other "Class D" amplifier, which are all essentially just conventional linear amplifiers with switching power supplies. Nothing digital about them at all. Now that we've derailed the original post........................... Luxman (now) makes great equipment (again). What difference does it make if it's an old design? At $3300 for a 10 watt valve amp it's about the build quality, quality control, warranty, service, and aesthetics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Just now, artto said: "Direct Digital" and "Digital Feedback". Neither of which are employed in virtually any other "Class D" amplifier, which are all essentially just conventional linear amplifiers with switching power supplies. Nothing digital about them at all. I am sorry but you have this completely wrong. Class D amplifiers are not just a conventional linear amplifier with a switching power supply. You do understand why Class D amplifiers need a filter at the output right? It's to remove the switching frequency and leave only audio. They are nothing close to your typical Complimentary or quasi complimentary linear power amplifier. Sorry I just don't want misinformation being spread. You do realize I am an electrical engineer that designs these sorts of things right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said: Irrelevant. My point is that some people will pay for things that look a little nicer. I’m not alone on this one… If you think what I said is irrelevant......................(fill in the blanks) I agree with you that some people will pay for things that look nice. But most of the junk being sold to audiophiles as well as their "practices" have nothing to with audio quality. Hell, a stiff drink or some funny stuff can do a better job at that. (and cost less) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: I am sorry but you have this completely wrong. Class D amplifiers are not just a conventional linear amplifier with a switching power supply. You do understand why Class D amplifiers need a filter at the output right? It's to remove the switching frequency and leave only audio. They are nothing close to your typical Complimentary or quasi complimentary linear power amplifier. Sorry I just don't want misinformation being spread. You do realize I am an electrical engineer that designs these sorts of things right? And they (Class D linear amplifiers) are nothing close to a Direct Digital Feedback Amplifier either. You do realize that, don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 11 minutes ago, artto said: If you think what I said is irrelevant......................(fill in the blanks) I agree with you that some people will pay for things that look nice. But most of the junk being sold to audiophiles as well as their "practices" have nothing to with audio quality. Hell, a stiff drink or some funny stuff can do a better job at that. Keep in mind, everything makes a difference. Cables, footers, isolation devices, power conditioners. Some of the best systems I have heard all sweat the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, artto said: And they are nothing close to a Direct Digital Feedback Amplifier either. You do realize that, don't you? Yes they are, that's the problem you don't understand any of it. You thought a Class D amplifier is just a regular linear amp with a switch mode power supply so you are showing how little you know. I advise to take a few steps back and study this stuff some more and think about it before making incorrect statements others might misinterpret. You don't have to listen to me go read what I referenced, it clearly says in plain text that it enables switching amplifier solutions. I.e. it improves a switching amplifier (Class D) performance. It's clear as day in the block diagram showing the switching amplifier portion untouched, it only changes the error correction from output to input but the topology of the amplifier remains the same which is a Class D switching amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said: Keep in mind, everything makes a difference. Cables, footers, isolation devices, power conditioners. Some of the best systems I have heard all sweat the details. And like I said, you've never been in a recording studio, and I suspect , like almost all audiophiles, have little to no recording experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: Yes they are, that's the problem you don't understand any of it. You thought a Class D amplifier is just a regular linear amp with a switch mode power supply so you are showing how little you know. I advise to take a few steps back and study this stuff some more and think about it before making incorrect statements others might misinterpret. You don't have to listen to me go read what I referenced, it clearly says in plain text that it enables switching amplifier solutions. I.e. it improves a switching amplifier (Class D) performance. It's clear as day in the block diagram showing the switching amplifier portion untouched, it only changes the error correction from output to input but the topology of the amplifier remains the same which is a Class D switching amplifier. Well, if you think so................ There really are no digital amplifiers https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_All_amps_are_analogue.pdf And after you're done reading that I have something else for you to look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 1 minute ago, artto said: Well, if you think so................ There really are no digital amplifiers https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_All_amps_are_analogue.pdf And after you're done reading that I have something else for you to look at. And think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, artto said: Well, if you think so................ There really are no digital amplifiers When did I call anything a digital amplifier? I call them as they are, a switching amplifier. You seem to be the one hung up using the term digital here which I think is what is confusing you even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Afraid to fall into the trap, eh? (really, I know you don't understand what I'm getting at yet) Bottom line is this is all just semantics. No need to argue. In the end, it's all about implementation anyway, right? Just because an amplifier is analog, or digital, Class A or Class AB, SET or quasi-complimentary doesn't make it better than one of the others. So I'll break the news to you. Bruno Putzy authored that paper in 2006 well before DDFA was a commercially available product. And as far as "analog" goes, There really isn't such as thing. Electrons don't "flow" like water, through or along the skin of wires. The whole world is digital. Even time itself comes in "bits". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 15 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: You thought a Class D amplifier is just a regular linear amp with a switch mode power supply so you are showing how little you know. I didn't think he said that at all. 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 20 minutes ago, artto said: And like I said, you've never been in a recording studio, and I suspect , like almost all audiophiles, have little to no recording experience. Don’t conflate music production with music reproduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 11 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said: Don’t conflate music production with music reproduction. Oh, excuse me? I most certainly will. Until you figure out (accept) that they are directly and completely interrelated you'll never even begin to understand, or comprehend, or experience what's possible. I sincerely mean that. And it's to your great advantage to pursue that if you really want to experience reproduced music at its best. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 18 minutes ago, Marvel said: I didn't think he said that at all. Then how do you interpret what he said here? 53 minutes ago, artto said: which are employed in virtually any other "Class D" amplifier, which are all essentially just conventional linear amplifiers with switching power supplies. Nothing digital about them at all. To me he thinks a Class D amplifier is a conventional linear amplifier with the only difference being it has a switch mode power supply. Which is completely wrong. If you can explain to me how you interpret it I am all ears. A switching amp, or Class D doesn't use the output devices as linear gain devices. They use the output devices as switches rapidly turning on and off, the audio input modulates the pulse train, no matter the method of modulation the result is the same, the output filter removes the switching frequency and you are left with the audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: Then how do you interpret what he said here? To me he thinks a Class D amplifier is a conventional linear amplifier with the only difference being it has a switch mode power supply. Which is completely wrong. If you can explain to me how you interpret it I am all ears. A switching amp, or Class D does use the output devices as linear gain devices. They use the output devices as switches rapidly turning on and off, the audio input modulates the pulse train, no matter the method of modulation the result is the same, the output filter removes the switching frequency and you are left with the audio. What I said was virtually all Class D amps are not DIGITAL at all. The M32 is as close to true DIGITAL as it gets at the moment, other than requiring some kind of "analog" output to drive ANALOG speakes. Class D amps are NOT Direct Digital or Digital Feedback or Direct Digital Feedback amplifiers. However, the NAD/Zetex developed amplifiers are. Hence, the original, and I agree with it, designation Class Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, artto said: Oh, excuse me? I most certainly will. Until you figure out that they are directly and completely interrelated you'll never even begin to understand, or comprehend what's possible. I sincerely mean that. And it's to your great advantage to pursue that if you really want to experience reproduced music at its best. Seriously. I’ve put together quite a few outstanding systems over the years. How presumptuous of you to think I need a recording background to do so. Or anyone else. Your smugness is certainly apparent, but you should open yourself to other possibilities. I know you won’t. No matter to me, carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Seriously guys, I've been on this Forum for 18 years and still have 900 points to go before my Forum Rank gets upgraded to the next level. I'm just tying to make as many posts as possible. (joke) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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