Pete H Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 16 minutes ago, rplace said: I pick red not knowing much else I agree, non knowing anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 55 minutes ago, Chris A said: How deep is your bass bin cabinet? 32" deep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 23 minutes ago, rplace said: I pick red not knowing much else. EQ it down 500-800. I did pure listening tests, of course very subjective, and the stack flush with the edge (Red line) sounded the best. This was last week sometime and have been listening that way since. The other position I listened to, was the 6" back with the wings flush with the BB front. I think what is needed now is a test with wings extended to say 12" and then 18". That may really make a difference. I'll see what I can drum up in the next few days. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.4 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Rudy81 said: I think what is needed now is a test with wings extended to say 12" and then 18". That may really make a difference. I'll see what I can drum up in the next few days. Very cool, great work @Rudy81 !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Rudy81 said: I did pure listening tests, of course very subjective, and the stack flush with the edge (Red line) sounded the best. This was last week sometime and have been listening that way since. The other position I listened to, was the 6" back with the wings flush with the BB front. I think what is needed now is a test with wings extended to say 12" and then 18". That may really make a difference. I'll see what I can drum up in the next few days. I'm glad I have some prep work to do while you still tinker. I'll wait to let you shake out the best combination of form vs measurement before building mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Again my apologies gents. I made an error during my last set of sweeps when I de-selected the EQ and bass bin effect from the response. Turns out I was working with the speaker I wasn't measuring. The 'real' results make more sense in my mind. In the nut shell, all the distance and wing changes make small changes in response overall. Nothing stands out, IMHO, as a must have, BUT, there is something to be gained by either enlarging the wings or moving the structure back. The difference are not huge, but they may just get you to the crossover point you want. I made a quick addition to my 7" wings to make one set at 13" and one large set at 21". I had to redo the distance sweeps now that I corrected my error. Overall, starts to really drop off below 500hz. Which, makes me think we can feasibly xover at 500hz with no problem. The best response below 500Hz was provided by the longer 21" wings, but they showed a lesser performance in the 700hz-1khz region.....so, a trade off, but it can be easily eq'd. Of just the 7" wing tests, the further back you move the structure, the better the response. The wings at the back of my bass bin provided excellent, almost flat response with better low end performance relative to having the wings up front. The plots are now what one would expect. Longer wings, better response. As Chris pointed out, the further back you move the structure, the better the low end. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Rudy81 said: Of just the 7" wing tests, the further back you move the structure, the better the response. The wings at the back of my bass bin provided excellent, almost flat response with better low end performance relative to having the wings up front. But sounds less open and airy at the back vs up front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Adding an extreme closeup of the more importance differences. Red line here is the 21" wings with the structure 17" back. The deep blue line is the 13" wing structure at 10.5" back from the BB edge. The light blue line is the set of 7" wings, 6" back from the BB edge. Finally, the black line is the structure at the edge of the BB. You can clearly see performance at the low end improves with longer wings and further back along the top of the bass bin. The question of course will be, what are the 'sound' differences in terms of soundstage and 'air' from the stack. More testing to follow for sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Just now, Thaddeus Smith said: But sounds less open and airy at the back vs up front? Yes, that was my initial impression, but I plan on revisiting that listening session tomorrow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 In looking at just my current 7" setup with the edge of the driver at the edge of the BB, vs. the big 21" wings near the back of the BB this is the plot. Seems like a worthwhile difference to me. I will have to start doing listening tests like that and fashion some wing extensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Most interestingly, when comparing my current 7" wings IF placed at the back of the bass bin to the 21" wings, the response is darn close.....hmmm. The 7" wings seem to have a flatter overall response and identical performance at 566Hz. The difference below that point is about 3dB in favor of the big wings. All this to say: Chris was correct...again! Based on this comparison, I am leaning toward keeping my 7" wings and moving them way back on the bass bin. The down side to moving them back is that the AMT stack will now be closer to the front wall. I will still have a little over 3 feet to the wall, so should be ok concerning the dipole. I really like the flat response of the green line in the 600hz-2khz region. That is nice! Of course, the big test will be the 'sound'. What I have found to be the best part of these drivers is the open, airy feeling with a gigantic, yet accurate, soundstage. I won't do anything to lose that. I will report my findings tomorrow...hopefully. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkalsi Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 It’s crazy this driver can really play down to 500hz. I do wonder what distortion would look like at that point though (at moderate to loud volumes). Even if it can play down to 800hz, that’s quite impressive. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, dkalsi said: It’s crazy this driver can really play down to 500hz. I do wonder what distortion would look like at that point though (at moderate to loud volumes). Even if it can play down to 800hz, that’s quite impressive. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Chris and I looked at the distortion at 100-105dB near 500hz. It was extremely low! These drivers and their technology are a real gem IMHO. When Hawthorne Audio was in business, they crossed the AMT (encased in a horn) at 300Hz!!!! ESS made the AMT but I have not been able to locate the horn manufacturer. If we could find that horn, or build one......well! This was the Hawthorne Rainier OB speaker. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 21, 2020 Author Share Posted January 21, 2020 I believe this is a candidate for the horn used: http://horns-diy.pl/horns/j-horn/ I didn't know that ESS provided the AMT used with the horn. I had assumed that the AMT was provided by another person (someone named "Jack Smiley"). If ESS provided the AMT itself for the Rainier loudspeaker, then perhaps it might still be available (i.e., Jack Smiley is apparently out of business building them). I haven't had much luck with getting responses from the horn manufacturer of the horn pictured above of late (Auto-Tech in Poland). It seems that they are not very interested in "customer service". I've tried to get a single response from them over the years. None of my messages have been successful in eliciting a response from them. Too bad. The horn that they show above is probably not the only profile that works well. In fact, I can see where that horn profile is not optimal in terms of lateral polar coverage vs. frequency--because it has curved walls and nearly flat top and bottom walls (the picture above shows the horn turned 90 degrees from its proper orientation to the floor). I've looked at the set-back measurements that you provided yesterday, and I've got to say that the 12" set back position looks a bit flatter in SPL response than the zero setback and 6" setback responses. But I have to say that this is probably more complicated than SPL response--in that there is a three-dimensional field of coverage that is affected by where you place a double-stack AMT-1 with wings. Looking at the other plots, there isn't much difference: phase, group delay, distortion, step response, impulse response, clarity, RT60, etc. In my small computer room with single AMT-1s not having wings, I found that putting the AMT-1s in the middle of the top covering the Khorn clone bass bins was a better choice from a SPL response smoothness and overall flatness standpoint. I really haven't had the time to try listening to different positions closer to the front of the bass bin front baffle. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Chris, you are likely correct about the AMT and Mr. Smiley, I may have mis-spoken about the manufacturer of the AMT in the Rainier. I've tried to do so much research on the topic I am likely confusing topics. If I get a chance to speak with Ricky at ESS I'll try to get more information. In the mean time, I plan on selecting the best setback location and then just using my ears to select what works best in my room. I suspect that room acoustics will have a greater impact on sound with these drivers than usual due to the dipole effects. Of course, one thing to keep in mind is that my measurements were taken in my room and incorporate some room boundary effects etc. Unfortunately, each user will likely benefit from doing their own testing in their listening environment. My goal right now is to not only improve my experience, but also help provide some idea of what guys can do with a Khorn, LaS, or Cornwall bass bin in terms of crossover frequency. I plan on lowering my crossover frequency to near 500Hz based on the plots from yesterday. The nice thing about your recommendation of a 12" setback is that it should minimize any timing delta. Question Chris....I currently have my structure set on top of 3/4" isolation pucks in hopes of minimizing any bass bin vibration interaction with the AMT. Frankly, not the best 'looking' setup. So, I'm wondering if there is anything worthwhile to be gained by setting the structure on isolation pucks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Rudy81 said: If I get a chance to speak with Ricky at ESS I'll try to get more information. I would imagine that if anyone knows about horns that may be out there, it would be him. Thanks again for all the effort and work. With all that you and Chris are doing on this, my order being delayed is turning out to be a benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, Pete H said: I would imagine that if anyone knows about horns that may be out there, it would be him. Thanks again for all the effort and work. With all that you and Chris are doing on this, my order being delayed is turning out to be a benefit. I promise it will be worth the wait! If you decide its not for you, let me know. I may buy your set as a backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 21, 2020 Author Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Rudy81 said: Question Chris....I currently have my structure set on top of 3/4" isolation pucks in hopes of minimizing any bass bin vibration interaction with the AMT. Frankly, not the best 'looking' setup. So, I'm wondering if there is anything worthwhile to be gained by setting the structure on isolation pucks? Probably not any benefit that's measurable. Some people might claim to hear this sort of thing, but in A-B testing, I don't believe that they'd be able to pick it out. The vibrations from the bass bin below are going to move the 32 pound dual-AMT-1 structure mostly up and down, perpendicular to the direction that the listener is located. So there is no "Doppler effect" or induced modulation distortion from the virtual movements of the heavy AMT-1 structure with wings. I'd recommend just setting them on top of the cabinets in a way that you'd like them to be visually. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Just now, Chris A said: Probably not any benefit that's measurable. Some people might claim to hear this sort of thing, but in A-B testing, I don't believe that they'd be able to pick it out. The vibrations from the bass bin below are going to move the 32 pound dual-AMT-1 structure mostly up and down, perpendicular to the direction that the listener is located. So there is no "Doppler effect" or induced modulation distortion from the virtual movements of the heavy AMT-1 structure with wings. I'd recommend just setting them on top of the cabinets in a way that you's like them to be visually. Chris Great! Thank you sir. That will also make it easier to make exact positioning measurements between speakers. I have the bass bins exactly placed with spikes, and at 150 pounds or so, they don't move on the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 43 minutes ago, Rudy81 said: I promise it will be worth the wait! If you decide its not for you, let me know. I may buy your set as a backup. I'm really good at buying, not so much with selling. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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