Pete H Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Rudy81 said: The crazy thing is the price comparison between an AMT and the TAD TDD-4002 or BMS 4592ND....it just is a superb technology. Where are you purchasing them from? I have to ask this question, if 2 stacked is great, what if you were to stack more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 BTW, this speaker is at the ESS showroom. Ricky of ESS sent me the picture. As you can see, they too are working on the horn theory. I believe this speaker is a prototype. I will also say that the folks at ESS are superb. Very personable and responsive when I called. Actually spent quite a bit of time on the phone with Ricky discussing my project. Seem like ESS is working on a lot of stuff for the future. I sure hope it goes well for them. How do you like the crazy look of their bass section? Called a Transar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Pete H said: Where are you purchasing them from? I have to ask this question, if 2 stacked is great, what if you were to stack more? Grrr. Don't even say that! Chris posted the ESS link above. They are on sale, $155 and free shipping. What's not to like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Rudy81 said: Grrr. Don't even say that! Chris posted the ESS link above. They are on sale, $155 and free shipping. What's not to like. You started it. LOL Hope to see you in April Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 40 minutes ago, Rudy81 said: I'll let Chris handle this comparison. Although I have owned the Faital Pro HF200's and those very horns, it was a long time ago and my 'audio' memory is not long lasting. Chris has more gear similar to what most Klipsch aficionados own. FWIW, my wife who appreciates good sound, but is not 'into' it came in to the media room while I was doing A/B testing with my Oris vs. a single AMT. I asked her to sit and listen and give me her impressions. After just a couple of minutes, she looked at me and said "that's a no brainer and left". Mind you, she had been ribbing me over even contemplating selling my Oris. I'm honestly perplexed and can't understand why more people have never heard of this AMT thing. I never would have known had Chris not used that driver to help explain some measurements he was teaching us to make. I've had AMT 1D speakers for about 7 years. Totally refurbished with new drivers. They are amazing and go down to 25 Hz. with a very special 12" woofer and passive radiator. They need to be away from walls, which I cannot do in my present house, so I have to part with them. They are VERY 3Dimeniosional, as all OB speakers are, even with a conventional bottom end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, ClaudeJ1 said: I've had AMT 1D speakers for about 7 years. Totally refurbished with new drivers. They are amazing and go down to 25 Hz. with a very special 12" woofer and passive radiator. They need to be away from walls, which I cannot do in my present house, so I have to part with them. They are VERY 3Dimeniosional, as all OB speakers are, even with a conventional bottom end. Do you know where the AMT is crossed in that speaker? 25Hz is pretty darn good for a 12" woofer. Tough to have a bottom end that can keep up with the speed of the AMT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 I found a couple of other polar sonogram plots of those same measurements, but these are normalized to the on-axis SPL, so they should look a little less noisy. Remember to look at the color of the central axis first, then look -6 down in terms of color on the scale at the right to find the polar coverage vs. frequency: The flare out of polars below 2 kHz is due to the lack of horn (wings). These will likely be much less pronounced for the stacked/winged AMT-1 assembly. As you get right up to 20 kHz, the width of the ribbon itself is beginning to become significant (i.e., the half wavelength of a 20 kHz wave is 0.34 inches at room temperature), and a vertically shaped "phase plug" on the ribbon output is needed in order to get consistent output above 20 kHz. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Rudy suggested I confirm once more that the LS bass bin frequency range goes high enough for this to work. That'sa yes, based on your first post in the thread, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 Yes--if you are using a DSP crossover. It's marginal if you're trying to use a passive crossover, and a lot of work would have to be done in the crossover region to balance the bass bin vs. AMT-1 assembly gains (i.e., attenuated downward) to match the SPL in the 400-500 Hz interference band. It takes a few seconds to do this using a DSP crossover, and only a few minutes to EQ the output flat. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Just now, Chris A said: Yes--if you are using a DSP crossover. It's marginal if you're trying to use a passive crossover, and a lot of work would have to be done in the crossover region to balance the bass bin vs. AMT-1 assembly gains (i.e., attenuated downward) to match the SPL in the 400-500 Hz interference band. It takes a few seconds to do this using a DSP crossover, and only a few minutes to EQ the output flat. Chris I'll be going with a miniDSP as part of this project. I've already got the UMIK-1, but am absolutely clueless with REW and reading these graphs. It's a good thing I've got you guys around to help me limp along at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said: I'll be going with a miniDSP as part of this project. I've already got the UMIK-1, but am absolutely clueless with REW and reading these graphs. It's a good thing I've got you guys around to help me limp along at that time. Here is some homework.... You have much reading to do sir.....BTW, this is how I found what the AMT can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 55 minutes ago, Rudy81 said: Do you know where the AMT is crossed in that speaker? 25Hz is pretty darn good for a 12" woofer. Tough to have a bottom end that can keep up with the speed of the AMT. 800 Hz. See http://esslabsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/AMT-1d-Manual-1.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 21 minutes ago, Chris A said: 800 Hz. See http://esslabsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/AMT-1d-Manual-1.pdf I think that's a great place for me to start my setup. Chris, would you recommend a L/R 24dB/Oct crossover for this application? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, Rudy81 said: Chris, would you recommend a L/R 24dB/Oct crossover for this application? You're probably asking the wrong guy this question. I'll never recommend anything greater than 1st order--to keep the phase shifts due to the electrical crossover filters to a minimum. I typically use "fractional order" crossovers. In other words, I don't use any canned filters with men's names on it, just PEQs, etc. The only times when I use first order is when I need the 90 degree phase shift (higher frequency to lower frequency)--like in a multiple entry horn (MEH), and when there is too much overlap in crossover interference band to use PEQs to attenuate all the portions of the drivers' response that's not needed. The only exception is if you're employing FIR filters, which have control of both amplitude and phase separately. Then I'd recommend using something steeper than first order. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, Chris A said: You're probably asking the wrong guy this question. I'll never recommend anything greater than 1st order--to keep the phase shifts due to the electrical crossover filters to a minimum. I typically use "fractional order" crossovers. In other words, I don't use any canned filters with men's names on it, just PEQs, etc. The only times when I use first order is when I need the 90 degree phase shift (higher frequency to lower frequency)--like in a multiple entry horn (MEH), and when there is too much overlap in crossover interference band to use PEQs to attenuate all the portions of the drivers' response that's not needed. The only exception is if you're employing FIR filters, which have control of both amplitude and phase separately. Then I'd recommend using something steeper than first order. Chris I asked about the 24dB/Octave based on my reading a comment by Dr. Heil's assistant. IIRC, he suggested that slope. However, I am gaining confidence in this driver setup we have and may start with the Danley Style non-crossover crossover. Since I don't listen at ear splitting levels, there shouldn't be any danger to the diaphragms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Rudy81 said: Do you know where the AMT is crossed in that speaker? 25Hz is pretty darn good for a 12" woofer. Tough to have a bottom end that can keep up with the speed of the AMT. 800 Hz. I measured down to 25 Hz. in my basement in Indy, but that was long ago and I didn't keep the curves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 11 hours ago, Chris A said: Qty 1 -- miniDSP 2x4 HD DSP (to cross over to the bass bin and do some EQing/time aligning of the AMT-1s and bass bin to flatten response) sonically, is this sufficient? As I read though related threads, it seems like the xilica units are the minimum equipment you cool kids will play with these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 49 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said: sonically, is this sufficient? As I read though related threads, it seems like the xilica units are the minimum equipment you cool kids will play with these days. I don't think the Xilica is 'minimum' for good sound. Having recently acquired one, it does offer more flexibility than other units. In my case, it has more EQ options than did my Ashly and has the convenience of control over IP. But, the Ashly was plenty capable on its own. The AMT doesn't need a huge amount of EQ, so even a basic unit should suffice. Of course, I defer to the expertise of others who are more conversant with active crossovers. I think what you have will be plenty to get you on your way should you decide this is a worthwhile option. As soon as I get mine up and running I hope you can stop by for a listen. Who knows, you may not feel it is that big a deal. Let your ears decide. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Thaddeus Smith said: sonically, is this sufficient? As I read though related threads, it seems like the xilica units are the minimum equipment you cool kids will play with these days. Also Yamaha is just as good. I have a spare if interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: Also Yamaha is just as good. I have a spare if interested. Yamaha SP2060? Probably outside of my budget to get started on this project, but I'll keep you in mind as things progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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