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Danomite

New home theatre kicks ***, but 2ch stereo not greatest

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12 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Get an affordable standalone DAC, you'll be amazed at the difference.  I listen to TONS of metal/hard rock.  I listen quote loud occasionally and there is ALMOST nothing in my library that is unlistenable as your describe or "too distorted".  What are you using as your source for music?  Cds?   If so, rip them to the computer in FLAC or WAV with a program such as EAC (exact audio copy) on error free method and run it through a DAC.   Best thing I did many years ago and haven't looked back since.   Using Cds 10 years ago or so sounded pleasing, but the method I use currently elevated audio to another level.   The truth is spoken above about the recordings IN GENERAL, but like I said, most sound fantastic on my system IMHO.   When you say "distorted", what are you hearing?   Be careful nto to smoke your tweeters via clipping your AVR.   The number on the receiver is irrelevant, you MAY be running out of gas if you are attempting to overdrive the amp.   Plenty of Marantz units can run fire hot as well.   If you experience this, may want to look into some cooling as well.   I second the crossover points.   Take the load off of your mains to free up unclipped power via the lowwe bass which may be eating up your AVRs power.   Good luck, have fun. 

Thanks for the info. I use tidal and just getting into vinyl. I will try some of your suggestions

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Once you get to levels of clipping moderately and more, the overall sound spectrum shifts ever brighter.  I'm not familiar with Marantz so seeing that unit's rated at 125 Watts per channel in stereo mode doesn't give me much information.  Is that at 1 kHz only or full-spectrum, continuous?  On paper it looks to be plenty but in use seemingly not.  It's hard to say based on the not-specified delivery of the specified music.  If you're sending it Bluetooth and as low-rate mp3s you're already way behind the eight ball compared to video sound tracks, for example.

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50 minutes ago, JohnA said:

I can't imagine you need, or could even use more power.   An outboard power of 600 wpc will add a little more than 6 dB. 

 

You probably have a calibration issue.  Does your subwoofer run in Stereo?  Have you run Audyssey in stereo?  How big is the room? 

 

Yes the sub runs in stereo mode. I have run the Audyssey but not just in stereo mode, didn’t realize I could do that. I will try that. The room is 13ft wide x 18ft long. I sit about 16ft from the front speakers. Would an integrated amp with a built in DAC designated for 2ch stereo sound better than the AVR that Im using now? Or would that just be a waste of money?

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On 1/10/2020 at 9:57 PM, Rivernuggets said:

I listen to a good amount of heavy stuff and the recordings are commonly not the greatest. Turning it up can make it sound worse as it's already compressed and tweaked. Still.....I listen to many bands that enjoy distortion.

The new Tool release is refreshingly not loud/compressed sounding. You can crank that one.

If your setup is capable of sounding awesome with movies it can do the same with music. Don't have a suggestion as to how with your receiver....not familiar with Marantz receivers.

Do you have any room treatments? Something to tame the first reflection coming off your mains.

Im not sure I understand what you mean by “room treatment”? 

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On 1/10/2020 at 11:35 PM, Danomite said:

Yes the sub runs in stereo mode. 

With some receivers like mine, Pioneer Elite in pure direct mode the sub does not get a signal, only in direct mode.

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On 1/11/2020 at 12:35 AM, Danomite said:

Yes the sub runs in stereo mode. I have run the Audyssey but not just in stereo mode, didn’t realize I could do that. I will try that. The room is 13ft wide x 18ft long. I sit about 16ft from the front speakers. Would an integrated amp with a built in DAC designated for 2ch stereo sound better than the AVR that Im using now? Or would that just be a waste of money?

 

It's a Marantz.  If you spend enough, you can buy an integrated amp that sounds better. 

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Position, position, position. Klipsch speakers are bright, period. If you are not running them through a tube amp or some high end SS, it's gonna get harsh at high volume. Pull the speakers away from the back wall, spread them out, toe them in, and turn the Hz on your sub to the max.

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On 1/10/2020 at 7:25 PM, Danomite said:

Im curious... at what volume level do you listen to music? Also what genre of music do you listen to?

I don’t listen to metal, but everything from downtempo & house to rock and the classics. I’m right around 50-60 on the dial. Clear amazing sound. The Marantz is plenty of power for these efficient 8000’s. Dunno what your issue is except for the source and maybe layout. 

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@Danomite

 

This is the bottom line. Your Marantz avr is rated @ 125 wpc clean with 2 channels driven, 8 ohm load. It will not do this while driving 5 or 7 channels, isn't gonna happen. And the OP clearly likes very high volume levels. He is clipping the Marantz amps resulting in elevated distortion levels and audible noise, @ high volume levels and source signal peaks.

 

OP, you want to play your music loud in multi channel format, you need to step up to a powerful multi channel separate amp like an Anthem MCA 525. You can run this downstream of your Marantz processor/pre outs. Or even very loud in 2 channel stereo operation. You need adequate amplifier power reserves and damping.

 

Or sell the Marantz and go separates. A multi channel processor/preamp and a powerful and robust multi channel power amp, or multiple amps. You want play your music really loud and clear (audibly free of distortion), be prepared to spend additional funds.

 

Anthem 5 channel power amp: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_973MCA525/Anthem-MCA-525.html?tp=48757

 

Here is an excellent article/reference on sound level output and power amplifier requirements (note every incremental doubling of amp output power = 3db sound pressure increase) :  https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/the-decibel-db

 

 

 

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On 1/11/2020 at 12:35 AM, Danomite said:

The room is 13ft wide x 18ft long. I sit about 16ft from the front speakers.

Are your fronts placed in the corners at near the 13ft distance?  If so, toe them in so they shoot to a point directly behind your ears/head.  As mentioned, pull them out from the front wall to maybe 18 inches.  Can you scoot your main listening position up some so it will be part of a equilateral triangle(13' x 13' x 13' or 12' x 12' x 12')?

 

Bill

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I think you are using the auto set up on theater mode for the  tone controls and then when you go to 2 channel music it sounds bad??right?? I found that with my Integra also so I used auto set up to get started then adjusted tone controls to sound right to music. The Integra is easy to adjust the tone and I find that other brands not so easy to adjust. My friend has a Yamaha avr and took forever to figure out how to do it. Then it was hard to do any tone controlling. Try adjusting tone in 2 channel to sound good my Integra keeps different settings for different modes such as Phono, aux, CD. 

If your rocking out to all channel stereo you may just be running out of power trying to run all those speakers. 

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Download a free SPL App for your phone so you can see what the SPL is, and at what frequency you are hitting the loudest.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

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17 hours ago, Danomite said:

Im not sure I understand what you mean by “room treatment”?

Cloth covered acoustic panels, commonly 2' x 4', placed on the walls to tame echoes. A good place to start is the first reflection point on the side walls. A combination of absorption and diffusion is a good goal. Below is a picture.

 

Here is one source for panels. You can also make your own:

https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-spot-panel/

 

diffusion-absorption-reduce-flat-wall-effects.jpg

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16 hours ago, johanness said:

I don’t listen to metal, but everything from downtempo & house to rock and the classics. I’m right around 50-60 on the dial. Clear amazing sound. The Marantz is plenty of power for these efficient 8000’s. Dunno what your issue is except for the source and maybe layout. 

Mine sounds good at 50-60 also. Just not quite loud enough. Might be that its a fairly large room. Layout is likely causing issues also. Or the AVR does not have the best components for music listening. I would most likely get better stereo sound out of a dedicated stereo integrated amp which is designed only for 2ch music. Not as many components as an AVR, therefore more quality components could be put into the makeup of an integrated stereo amp creating less background noise. Just my thoughts, maybe Im wrong

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15 hours ago, willland said:

Are your fronts placed in the corners at near the 13ft distance?  If so, toe them in so they shoot to a point directly behind your ears/head.  As mentioned, pull them out from the front wall to maybe 18 inches.  Can you scoot your main listening position up some so it will be part of a equilateral triangle(13' x 13' x 13' or 12' x 12' x 12')?

 

Bill

It would be great if I could do this, unfortunately the entertainment stand, tv, towers, are along a 10t wall. The wall is only 10ft because there is a 3ft opening to access the stairway. Also I cant move my seating area up as its a large sectional in the back corner. However I have tried toeing the speakers in, not sure if it helped or not? Might be seated too far away from the speakers to notice a difference when toeing them in

 

 

Edited by Danomite
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15 hours ago, ricktate said:

I think you are using the auto set up on theater mode for the  tone controls and then when you go to 2 channel music it sounds bad??right?? I found that with my Integra also so I used auto set up to get started then adjusted tone controls to sound right to music. The Integra is easy to adjust the tone and I find that other brands not so easy to adjust. My friend has a Yamaha avr and took forever to figure out how to do it. Then it was hard to do any tone controlling. Try adjusting tone in 2 channel to sound good my Integra keeps different settings for different modes such as Phono, aux, CD. 

If your rocking out to all channel stereo you may just be running out of power trying to run all those speakers. 

 

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Thank you. This is a good suggestion. I have tried fiddling with the tonal controls a bit but I couldnt get the sound I was looking for. Most likely because there are many tones to tamper with and I just couldnt figure out a great combination. I will try this again tho. Thanks

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1 hour ago, Danomite said:

Mine sounds good at 50-60 also. Just not quite loud enough. Might be that its a fairly large room. Layout is likely causing issues also. Or the AVR does not have the best components for music listening. I would most likely get better stereo sound out of a dedicated stereo integrated amp which is designed only for 2ch music. Not as many components as an AVR, therefore more quality components could be put into the makeup of an integrated stereo amp creating less background noise. Just my thoughts, maybe Im wrong


I listen around 50-60 constant, but things still stay tight at 75. But I’m running pure direct 2ch stereo. 
If you want to keep your aesthetic and not blow the bank, you could look at this:

http://www.ca.marantz.com/ca/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=AVSeparates&SubCatId=&ProductId=MM7025

 

Cheers

Edited by johanness
Sp

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17 hours ago, polizzio said:

@Danomite

 

This is the bottom line. Your Marantz avr is rated @ 125 wpc clean with 2 channels driven, 8 ohm load. It will not do this while driving 5 or 7 channels, isn't gonna happen. And the OP clearly likes very high volume levels. He is clipping the Marantz amps resulting in elevated distortion levels and audible noise, @ high volume levels and source signal peaks.

 

OP, you want to play your music loud in multi channel format, you need to step up to a powerful multi channel separate amp like an Anthem MCA 525. You can run this downstream of your Marantz processor/pre outs. Or even very loud in 2 channel stereo operation. You need adequate amplifier power reserves and damping.

 

Or sell the Marantz and go separates. A multi channel processor/preamp and a powerful and robust multi channel power amp, or multiple amps. You want play your music really loud and clear (audibly free of distortion), be prepared to spend additional funds.

 

Anthem 5 channel power amp: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_973MCA525/Anthem-MCA-525.html?tp=48757

 

Here is an excellent article/reference on sound level output and power amplifier requirements (note every incremental doubling of amp output power = 3db sound pressure increase) :  https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/the-decibel-db

 

 

 

Yep you nailed it. Im gonna have to start saving my pennies for more clean power. Thanks for the suggestion and the insightful article.

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6 hours ago, johanness said:


If you want to keep your aesthetic and not blow the bank, you could look at this:

http://www.ca.marantz.com/ca/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=AVSeparates&SubCatId=&ProductId=MM7025

 

Cheers

 

That is not worth the expense. That amp is rated @ 140 wpc clean, his avr will do 125 wpc clean into 2 channel stereo only. 25 watts when volume is cranked up is negligible. Not even a 2 db change between the two when approaching really high volume settings. OP needs to move to at least 250 wpc, 300 or 400 wpc even better. Or listen @ lower volume levels where output power is clean and amp not clipped.

 

Read this article on amp output power and sound pressure (volume)  increases:  https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/the-decibel-db

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