Jump to content
The Klipsch Audio Community
joessportster

Biggest cause of SIBILANCE

Recommended Posts

18 hours ago, Chris A said:

I think that the following article describes the source of the main portion of the sibilance problem with digital sources.

Above is what I said as a qualifier to all my contributions in this thread. 

 

When there is information that can be offered to those that are seeking solutions to their sound problems that might help them understand the nature of their audio problems and paths to solutions, I try to offer it.  I believe that my past record shows this. I try to hold the opinions on sound reproduction without associated measurements to a minimum. I find that arguing opinions only, and not fact plus data combined with opinion, is fruitless.  Those that do try to argue opinions only--I try to avoid.

 

I think helping others with real information and data instead of opinion is a much better approach...as an engineer...especially on the subject of hi-fi sound reproduction, which is largely mired in opinion not based in fact.  That's the engineer in me, I suppose.  The trained musician in me greatly appreciates the result of that approach every time I fire up my hi-fi sound reproduction system. I hope that others benefit from my efforts, which is why I post them here.

 

Chris

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think a little EQ would fix the problem most of the time.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also think that compression doesn't help any sibilance problems.

JJK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, joessportster said:

Been there my obsessive compulsive behavior to keep improving, Getting the best outta what I have always leads to a point where musicality is lost to a degree.  Its like there is a step to far, its hard to find the perfect balance between staying musical and getting reference quality sound

- Joe 

 

there is no doubt that the more your sound is reference quality sound , the more sibilance you will hear ,  and as you age ,  your hearing changes  -no matter how good your gear has advanced , or how good your recordings are -however there is a vip factor to consider first , the sound room -

 

 -I can beat expensive gear , with cheap gear in a good sound room --

 

--and here is my question ?, how good is your sound  room ?, do you have an insulated  sound room ?-  finally is your gear placed in the best sounding room of your home ? -

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, JJkizak said:

I would also think that compression doesn't help any sibilance problems.

JJK

How so?  If you're referencing my discussion of a multiband compressor, I described very narrow band compression instead of attenuation of all frequencies in the sibilance band (4.5-8 kHz) for only the vocal track--usually applied to the mix before the mixdown track.

 

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Randyh said:

- Joe 

 

there is no doubt that the more your sound is reference quality sound , the more sibilance you will hear ,  and as you age ,  your hearing changes  -no matter how good your gear has advanced , or how good your recordings are -however there is a vip factor to consider first , the sound room -

 

 -I can beat expensive gear , with cheap gear in a good sound room --

 

--and here is my question ?, how good is your sound  room ?, do you have an insulated  sound room ?-  finally is your gear placed in the best sounding room of your home ? -

 

 

 

 

 

I have 1 room available and to be frank it S&%#S. Wood floors and drywall all around  with drywall ceilings. Echo Testing shows it to be very LIVE which I already know is a bad room for audio but I live in almost a tiny house and the room is what it is. Its the living room as well so no treatments can be used currently.  I have future plans for a better situation but for now I must remain

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Chris A said:

Above is what I said as a qualifier to all my contributions in this thread. 

 

When there is information that can be offered to those that are seeking solutions to their sound problems that might help them understand the nature of their audio problems and paths to solutions, I try to offer it.  I believe that my past record shows this. I try to hold the opinions on sound reproduction without associated measurements to a minimum. I find that arguing opinions only, and not fact plus data combined with opinion, is fruitless.  Those that do try to argue opinions only--I try to avoid.

 

I think helping others with real information and data instead of opinion is a much better approach...as an engineer...especially on the subject of hi-fi sound reproduction, which is largely mired in opinion not based in fact.  That's the engineer in me, I suppose.  The trained musician in me greatly appreciates the result of that approach every time I fire up my hi-fi sound reproduction system. I hope that others benefit from my efforts, which is why I post them here.

 

Chris

Chris I have read some of your posts and I really appreciate your informed input. I just simply dont understand 3/4 of it, I am a PC Novice at best. I wish it were not so, I do stray outside my box from time to time in an effort to learn.  Hard for this old dog to learn some stuff,  when having to go back and forth a dozen times to figure out 1 small part of a topic.  Not to make an excuse and not looking for sympathy just stating the facts. Growing up in a POOR household riddled with abuse & scorn, no one so much as mentioned collage or higher learning.  I struggle with some of this stuff we call a hobby.

 

I am happy overall with the sound I can generate 90% of what I now know has come from learning online here at the forums and folks I have met here. Thanks again for your efforts Chris

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, joessportster said:

I have 1 room available and to be frank it S&%#S. Wood floors and drywall all around  with drywall ceilings. Echo Testing shows it to be very LIVE which I already know is a bad room for audio but I live in almost a tiny house and the room is what it is. Its the living room as well so no treatments can be used currently.  I have future plans for a better situation but for now I must remain

perfect , keep an eye out for some old pine or oak wood  boards  , they  can greatly enhance the room sound without having to re-insulate the entire room  /simply tag  them on top of the drywall , and this wood will make a big difference as it will act as a 2nd layer of  insulation with the drywall -

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This whole thread reminds me of why I said no thanks. I have had a couple people willing to teach me how to "critically listen", it kind of scared me, I want to just enjoy the music instead of taking it apart or looking  for problems. It looks miserable to watch someone who listens to the parts and seems to at times miss the music, it should be enjoyed first.

 

Just another opinion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must be very lucky because i have never had any noticeable issue with this.  I think if you have an overly aggressive system (overly analytical) then the recordings that have this problem will probably be accentuated.  I have had overly analytical in the past but not anymore thanks to McIntosh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Edgar said:

Yes--from that link:

 

Quote

Use a De-esser Plugin – A de-esser plugin is a compressor that only reduces the loudness of a selected frequency band. Dial in the offending frequency, set the threshold and let the De-Esser do it’s thing. There are occasions when a De-Esser may not totally reduce the effects of sibilance. In this case a combination of De-Essing, equalizing and automating may be necessary. Where to place the de-essr plugin in the chain is a question of trial and error. There are no rules. Try inserting the de-esser pre equalizer/compressor, post equalizer/compressor – whatever works for you!

Thanks Greg.  The de-esser is using selective band compression and EQing (attenuation) of the offending frequencies--4.5-8 kHz (the exact frequencies of interest are always a function of the person singing or speaking into the microphone with some toward 4.5 kHz--usually male voices, and others at the high end of 8 kHz --usually female voices, but these are just generalizations).  Generally, the de-essers are only applied to vocal tracks only.

 

I've found a lot of mastering accentuates lower frequency sibilance singers in the 4.5-6 kHz range.  One notable example is Norah Jones on her Not Too Late album.  Once the 2-6 kHz EQ is rebalanced to more reasonable level vis-à-vis the other frequency bands using Audacity, her voice becomes very natural sounding, but retains its full presence.  I use the first track off that record ("Wish I Could") as an addition to Roy's test disc tracks because after demastering EQ is applied to that track, it's one of the cleanest and most convincing pop female voice recordings that I own (in stereo).  [I recommend the 2012 Analogue Productions SACD version of that album--PCM layer--in order to get good dynamic range.]

 

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This reminds me of why it is difficult to diagnose and prescribe via the internet.

 

I had a friend of a friend ..... who complained of sibilance (as he defined it). 

 

He had received all sorts of suggestions (taming things with a tube amp, all digital systems are bad, horns are bad, crossover need to be re-capped,  change amps, sources, pre-amps, dampen this and dampen that, etc). I finally went over there since he lived near a friend I was visiting. The diaphragm on the mid-range compression driver was damaged along with some debris rattling around inside the driver. Th only reason I spotted it so quickly was that I had a similar problem a few years before. The sound was distinctive , especially when you ran some test tones through it at a sufficient volume. Although I referred to it as "harshness" and not "sibilance". 

 

Interestingly, the other speaker sounded fine. That data point, however, did not limit the suggestions for the "system-wide" cures regarding, amps, caps, etc, etc

 

Good Luck,

-Tom

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Chris A said:

The de-esser is using selective band compression and EQing (attenuation) of the offending frequencies--4.5-8 kHz (the exact frequencies of interest are always a function of the person singing or speaking into the microphone with some toward 4.5 kHz--usually male voices, and others at the high end of 8 kHz --usually female voices, but these are just generalizations).  Generally, the de-essers are only applied to vocal tracks only.

 

In my case, I first noticed it on "I've Been to Memphis", from Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth album. It was present in all audio, but this track really magnified it. I found that a narrow PEQ with 9-12 dB cut (!) at 7.5 kHz helped, but also killed the frequency balance. What really solved the problem was replacing the amp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Chris A said:

 

I've found a lot of mastering accentuates lower frequency sibilance singers in the 4.5-6 kHz range.  One notable example is Norah Jones on her Not Too Late album.  Once the 2-6 kHz EQ is rebalanced to more reasonable level vis-à-vis the other frequency bands using Audacity, her voice becomes very natural sounding, but retains its full presence.  I use the first track off that record ("Wish I Could") as an addition to Roy's test disc tracks because after demastering EQ is applied to that track, it's one of the cleanest and most convincing pop female voice recordings that I own (in stereo).  [I recommend the 2012 Analogue Productions SACD version of that album--PCM layer--in order to get good dynamic range.]

Do they master it this way on purpose - to pump up her voice on headphones for example?  She's got some top engineers on her albums but I always thought many of her tracks had a lot of ssss'ss and sshhh'sshhs.  Certainly they can hear this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/22/2020 at 4:48 PM, Schu said:

In my systems... I've only ever had an issue with unbearable sibilance when using vinyl. Changing the settings/set up solved those issues. If I had sibilance issues with other media, I always just chalked it up to the source material and never played it again (lots of Beatles stuff). The interesting thing is, after going to an all tube front end, I can easily play formally unbearable source materials to the point where they actually sound quite outstanding. Distortion is down, presentation is silky smooth and sibilance is nonexistent.


 

In terms of vinyl, what were the aggravating factors? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO - 99% of sibilance from vinyl recordings is from undamped cantilever resonances in the pickup.

I cut my teeth on GE Variable Reluctance on Garrard RC-80!  I watched Shure M-55E's jump out of the groove!  Had a collection of ADC, Empire, M/A, Ortofon, Shure, Stanton all mounted on headshells for

quick A/B/C in 1974.  Best overall was ADC XLM Mk II - better trackability than Shure Supertrack!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HiFi Heaven said:

IMHO - 99% of sibilance from vinyl recordings is from undamped cantilever resonances in the pickup.

I cut my teeth on GE Variable Reluctance on Garrard RC-80!  I watched Shure M-55E's jump out of the groove!  Had a collection of ADC, Empire, M/A, Ortofon, Shure, Stanton all mounted on headshells for

quick A/B/C in 1974.  Best overall was ADC XLM Mk II - better trackability than Shure Supertrack!

 

I had similar experiences with several of the same cartridges!   Later, when I made some 15 ips 1/2 track tape recordings, I noticed no sibilance from very emphatic actors, using the following mics: U47fet, and an RCA 77 ribbon mike.  Both had a rep for picking up sibilance, but we got none.  We had our actors talk across the mics rather than straight into them.  I wondered why the pros couldn't keep the sibilance out of their recordings a little more often.   It makes sense to me that ill-advised EQ might have been the reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/22/2020 at 3:48 PM, Schu said:

The interesting thing is, after going to an all tube front end, I can easily play formally unbearable source materials to the point where they actually sound quite outstanding. Distortion is down, presentation is silky smooth and sibilance is nonexistent.

A different explanation for this effect: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/182419-subconscious-auditory-effects-of-quasi-linear-phase-loudspeakers/&do=findComment&comment=2435315

 

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't say I under the reasoning behind the phenomenon,  but I do know it exists in my system/experiences. I'm not even sure why I need to know the reasons and probabilities... I am just enjoying my COMPLETE music collection now when before I could not.

 

The synergy of components I have going in my personal listening space is quite magical and has been a journey to this point of nirvana... so much so, I have really put the idea of moving to Jubilees on semi-permanent hold for fear of making the balance, less rewarding.

 

When I see the Jubilees, I see untapped potential in terms of outright performance... I don't think I need all that potential in a room that is probably less than 450sqft... if I had an auditorium,  then yes I can see the need.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...