ZDoug Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Has anyone listened to multichannel material which is processed through the Lexicon logic 7 processor and then listened to the same material using the new THX Ultra 2 (7.1 processing).Both are supposed to take multichannel material and make it sound like they are recorded for 7 channels so alledgedly eventhough you are watching a 5.1 movie it sounds like one recorded in Dolby Ex. Does this really work? Is one system noticeably better than the other? I would use the processor only for HT. The reason I ask is that a local dealer is trying to sell me the Lexicon MC-1 with a Rotel 5 channel amp. He says it will sound better than Pioneer 49txi or equivalent receiver w/ultra 2. Does anyone agree or should I buy the Pioneer or the B&K 507. I will be using 2 sides and 2 rear speakers.Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Logic 7 turns 2 chanel music into 7.1. Dolby Prologic II does the same thing for 2 channel into 5.1 or 7.1. THX Ultra 2 takes material that is Dolby Digital 5.1 and turns it into 7.1. A comparison of Logic 7 to THX Ultra 2 is comparing apples and oranges, IMO, becuase the sources are different. The 5.1 track is usually much better than the 2 channel track for the same movie. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDoug Posted November 8, 2002 Author Share Posted November 8, 2002 Mr Mc: So you would go with the new THX Ultra 2 recievers if you were going to being using it almost exclusively to decode 5.1 and Dolby surround? Again this dealer is telling me that 5.1 and Dolby surround will sound like 7.1 through my 4 rear speakers when I use Lexicon logic 7 and a 5 channel amp. It sounds like you disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 zdoug, if he's saying that logic 7 will take a 5.1 speaker system & make it sound like EX w/ 7.1 speakers, i'd say that's bs. the best way to do that is w/ 6.1 or 7.1 speakers & an EX decoder in your processor, & ideally w/ material encoded in EX. iow, Dolby EX is an encoding. EX & logic 7 are decoders so which do you think does EX best? THX basically means Dolby EX w/ a few of their proprietary post-processing EQ type function thrown on top. i think w/ the Ultra 2 its some "steering something" thing that's added to their prior re-eq, adaptive decorrelation & timbre matching post-processing gizmos. but, the lexicons are excellent in their own right, & I believe they have dolby EX decoders anyway. that's what you really want. thx EQ functions aren't a lot to make a dif imho. but as MrM said, logic 7, like DPL II & dts neo, are a decoding process more for 2.0 material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Boa You hit it right on the head. Evan with the New DD standard, Lexicon recomends running there systems in Logic 7. Because they take whatever signal you give it and process it to the exact specifications of your room and speakers. Remember - When you set up the lexicon, you do not only set the db levils for each speaker, but plug in a lot of other data like distances between you and the speakers. Once Logic 7 has that data, it does its magic. Lexicons are great, but expensive. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDoug Posted November 8, 2002 Author Share Posted November 8, 2002 JM: I thought Boa was saying that a Dolby EX or Dts-es decoder would be better than Logic 7 at decoding those formats. That makes sense.It sounds like you are saying the Lexicon logic7 , which I note is part of your system,is as good or better than the ex and es decoders even with ex and es encoded material.Neither the MC-1 or DC-2 have ex or es decoding as far as I can tell.Do you feel Logic 7 sounds better even with ex and es encoded material? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 zdoug How the Lexicon works is : It has all the standard decoders THX, DD, DTS etc depending on your bios levil. This is like most HT receivers. The Lexicon goes one step farther. The Logic 7 is applied after the DTS or DD decoding. It is above and beyond the standard decoding. So for example, if I watch a DTS movie, I set my DVD player to output DTS. The Lexicon sees the format, uses its DTS decoder first to decode the sound. I then have a choice to listen to the native DTS or apply the Logic 7 to it. The Logic 7 is amazing. The lexicons native decoders are better than most others also. This is how I read Boa's post. That The Logic 7 is independent. Hope this makes sence. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 I have a THX Ultra 2 receiver. It applies proprietary THX processing to 5.1 sources only. It requires a 7.1 speaker systyem with the surround back (center surrounds) to be within 4 feet of each other. Ultra 2 processing will not be done by the receiver unless it has all 7 speakers etc. I like Ultra 2, but DTS ES discrete is usually better than DD 5.1 in Ultra 2. The discrete 6th channel can add a lot to a movie sound track IMO. Gladiator and Saving Pvt. Ryan are the best examples. DD Surroud EX has its 6th channel matrixed inot the two surround channels and can sound great. LOTR, Harry Potter and THe Phantom Menace are excellent sound tracks. In short, I usually prefer any "6.1" movie over a 5.1 movie. All 5.1 and 6.1 movies are best if the receiver is properly calbrated with delay times (distances) and sound levels matched in all 7 channels. The Lexicons have an excellent reputation. I do not know if they do room acoustic callibration. I believe that the best sound improvement left for most people is to match speakers to room acoustics. There are two routes to go. Pioneer will do it automatically on most of their VSX 4X series. Or, you can spend some money to have a pro do it with an equalizer. If you want to learn more about Ulta 2, go to the flagship receiver forum. Both the Pioneer and Denon flagships have their manual on line and both are Ultra 2. The Pioneer manual is long, but a wealth of information. The Pioneer and Denon forums have discussions of Ultra 2, DD EX and DTS ES, PL II etc. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 dougz, in a nutshell the mc-1, the b&k 507, B&K reference pre/pros, & the pioneer all have dolby/thx EX decoders. but the mc-1 is thx ultra & has a dolby EX decoder whereas the pioneer & others are thx ultra 2. also you should note that some of these are pre/pros & some are receivers. w/ the pre/pros you also need to get a good power amp. sorry if this you know already. i think what the guy was trying to say that since both logic 7 & or any thx tech are post-processing "modes", the logic 7 is still better than the thx ultra2 even w/ its advanced steering & all. & J agrees. i haven't had any direct listening experience w/ either logic 7 or thx ultra2 myself. my pre/pro is a "simple" thx ultra ex. i agree w/ mrm too that dts es is the better encoding format. now my prepro has a dts encoder, but i can do thx ultra post-processing on top of that. so i won't get true dst es decoding until i get an upgrade (also a good feature to consider - easy & available upgradibility). a lot of confusion comes from thx - they seem to try to make people think that they need thx to do EX decoding. not true. EX was a collaboration between dolby & thx. but it was dolby that handled the encoding/decoding work. but now that they have gone their seperate ways you may see dolby EX &/or thx EX on material & processors. point is both have dolby EX decoders. i'd also look for dts es matrix & discrete decoding (or one that can upgrade to it easily). the only way to really find out which has the sound you like is to demo them at home w/ your system & try the different modes w/ different material, including those dvd w/ EX encoding. i'd also consider how upgradable each is if you don't want it to become obsolete in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 ZDoug, Boa has many excellent points. Upgradability is a major factor IMO. Lexicon, B&K, Denon, Onkyo and Pioneer all tout upgradability. Upgrades can help protect your investment from obsolescence , but the receivers are only upgradable if they are the flagship model. In receivers, the lower models are not upgradable. The Denon flagship forum has some interesting information about Denon's upgrade of the AVR-5800 to Ultra2 (similar to the 5803). Denon limited the number of upgrades available. UPS dropped several units in transit. Bottom line was that not everyone was happy with the upgrade. Pioneer will soon take its first shot in upgrading the 49TX to be similar to the 49TXi with TI Firewire for DVD-A and SACD decoding in the receiver. Best advice is to listen to the various possibilities and let your ears help decide. Then investigate service. This level of equipment is a big investment for most of us. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 bill, sorry i left out the denon 5800 above. yes its also upgradable. wonder if all the new 03 models are now easy upgradable as well - like the 3803? & that's the 1st i've heard of the firewire & dvd-audio/sacd decoder in the receiver or pre/pro. have they finally gotten around the industry copywrite protection? that is that a digital connection can't pass higher than a 48k sampling rate. that would be great news for an upgrade for my pre/pro (it has an ieee port that's been waiting for the new digital standard for dvd-audio/sacd). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Boa, Pioneer claims that there will not be a copy protection problem with the 49TXi decoding DVD-As and SACDs. So far there are no reported problems on the Pioneer flagship forum. The Denon 5803 uses a proprietary i-link that doesn't pass copy protected DVD-As yet. The Denon owners are not that happy, especially after purchasing the expensive 9000 model. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 bill, thanks. i have heard of some somehow getting around that protection. maybe they're testing the legal waters. if so, i'm rooting for them. guess we'll see. yes i could imagine after getting that 9000. that copy protection obsticle sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Boa, Pioneer is using a Texas Instrumets chip set that has satisfied the RIAA copy protection requirements. I believe that it will be the first of many users. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.