Belle Klipsch

[Todd W]

Hello all! I am new to the forum. I love my Belle Klipsch, and am the original owner. Read a post about the undesirable AB crossovers. Should I consider changing them out? Would there be a noticeable difference, improvement? Thank you for your input. 

[mikebse2a3]

Let’s see you have owned these for 30 years and love them and I assume you aren’t hearing any issues and the only reason you have doubts now is because in a post someone claims AB networks are less desired ... 🙂

 

The facts are the various networks were designed with the specific drivers that came with your Belles at the time of manufacturing and to change to different networks will most likely change the voicing of the system and wether you would consider that a good thing or bad is really specific to your system , room and individual preferences. 🙂

 

I guess I’m mostly saying if you want to try something different that’s OK but don’t let what gets said and repeated on forums worry you that somehow after 30 years of loving your Belles you need to change something...!!! 
 

If you think about it my guess is if you take the amount of people who own Belles for instance versus the number that are active on this forum I believe you would find the percentage is very small for forum members and the largest majority of Belle owners are probably enjoying these speakers as they originally came from Klipsch.

 

By the way while some here on the forum will almost automatically proclaim 30 year old networks need capacitors replaced due to age I’ve seen no good proof that this is the case. @Trey Cannon who works at Klipsch has recently tested some older networks and so far the results indicate that most of those he has tested are still performing properly so capacitor replacement might be more a case of preventive maintenance rather than a automatic necessity based on age.

 

By the way Welcome Todd W to the forum and be careful cause we tend to be enabling when it comes to spending money on audio ..😄

 

miketn

 

[MC39693]

I second what @mikebse2a3 said.  I took a set of E crossovers out of my 1980 Heresy a couple of years ago, removed the "oil can" capacitors and in fact built new E crossovers.  Just for fun though I checked the "oil can" caps, standalone out of the crossover.  They were pretty much bang on for values.  I've had the speakers (still do) all that time in good care. There were no leaks, no cold solders etc.  But, I will say that the new E crossovers sounded just a bit more clear and "open", but that may be "builder/buyer bias".  If you are into DIY, what about making a new crossover, to have some fun and learn a bit, and test it vs. an original.  Sorry, there I go with the "enabling you to spend your money" part!  Welcome to the forum!

[JohnA]

Mike nailed it.  I have a '69 H700 and 2 '80s HIPs with the original caps and I can hear no reason to replace them.  I have been a proponent of replacing old caps, but these old "Heresies" have changed my mind. 

 

*I* strongly disliked the Type AL xovers I had in a pair of La Scalas I had.  They had the same components your Belles have.  My room was different than yours, too.  And you have Z-brackets!!!!  Unless you can identify a deficiency, leave well enough alone. 

 

 

[Todd W]

Thank you for all the input! They really do sound awesome IMHO! My only complaint would be hearing loss over the past 30 years (made loud to play loud) 😁. I am powering them with 2- Adcom GFA- 555s. I love this forum, and thankful for finding it! Good group of people. Been following for a couple of months, though I should join. 👍  I truly am an audiophile amateur, and see I have a lot to observe here!

[Peter P.]

From the photos it appears your Belles are resting on their sides. Flip them 90 degrees so they are resting on their bottoms and the sound will improve. No need for new crossovers.

😉

[Todd W]

29 minutes ago, JohnA said:

Mike nailed it.  I have a '69 H700 and 2 '80s HIPs with the original caps and I can hear no reason to replace them.  I have been a proponent of replacing old caps, but these old "Heresies" have changed my mind. 

 

*I* strongly disliked the Type AL xovers I had in a pair of La Scalas I had.  They had the same components your Belles have.  My room was different than yours, too.  And you have Z-brackets!!!!  Unless you can identify a deficiency, leave well enough alone. 

 

 

Thank you JohnA. They sound as good today, as the day I bought them! Crisp, clear and punchy! Curious what a z-bracket is thought. Could you please explain. Not kidding about being an hifi amateur 😂. 

[Kevin S]

All original Belle’s that you have owned since new!? Do not tamper with PWK’s design unless something becomes obviously defective would be my recommendation! Consider me envious. 

[Todd W]

5 minutes ago, Peter P. said:

From the photos it appears your Belles are resting on their sides. Flip them 90 degrees so they are resting on their bottoms and the sound will improve. No need for new crossovers.

😉

I thought they looked kinda funny in my room 😂. I will try that! 😉😄. I will post some pics soon!

[Todd W]

4 minutes ago, Kevin S said:

All original Belle’s that you have owned since new!? Do not tamper with PWK’s design unless something becomes defective would be my recommendation! Consider me envious. 

That was my thought also. I can’t imagine them sounding any better! Was just curious after a negative post about AB crossovers. Had to ask. 

[Kevin S]

1 hour ago, Todd W said:

That was my thought also. I can’t imagine them sounding any better! Was just curious after a negative post about AB crossovers. Had to ask. 

There are a lot of good things about forums such as this one. The one universal bad thing with forums is that someone will find fault with anything/everything. 

[MookieStl]

I too believe "if it ain't broke, dont fix it". BUT I do like to tinker. I have a pair of Belles one year older than yours. Mine too had the AB crossover.

After about a year, I decided to "tinker". I went the route of A4500 x over which meant I had to replace the tweeter. (dropping the x over point to 4500hz from 6000hz made it easier on the mid but too low for the k77 tweeter) I added the CT125 tweeter to the mix. I am not sure how much of the improvement was due to getting rid of the AB, the new caps vs the old caps or the new tweeter, but the difference was definitely worth the effort and or expense. I also have recapped a couple AA and E xovers and always found the results positive. To update caps is like changing spark plugs in your classic car. You are aren't tampering with the design intent, only updating parts that tend to wear out.

List you location, you may find a member close that will loan you a crossover to try. We like to spend others money, but we can be very helpful (at times)

[wvu80]

4 hours ago, Todd W said:

Read a post about the undesirable AB crossovers. Should I consider changing them out? Would there be a noticeable difference, improvement?

Welcome to the Klipsch forums.

+++

 

Add my vote to @MookieStl.  Swap out the Type AB for some type AA or the Crites A/4500 + tweeter.  Mookie provided the reasons why.

 

If you look on crites.com you'll see he won't even rebuild the AB, there are not enough components worth saving (economically).  He recommends the AA, AL3 or the A/4500.  I have owned the A/4500 with Khorns and an upgraded horn and the improvement was dramatic, well worth the time, effort and money.

 

[geoff.]

Never owned Belles, but have had LaScalas with the AA, AL-3, A/4500 and the AL. The AL crossover in the LaScala is essentially the same as the AB in a Belle, with values changed to bring the woofer to squawker point from 400(ish) to 500hz.

 

To he honest, I could live with any of them if that was the only option I had. The AL was the LAST one I heard in the progression and I was surprised to find it NOT offensive as others have noted.

 

The A/4500 is the most “refined” sounding of the lot. Surprisingly civil at louder volumes despite being a simple crossover. I don’t think the CT-120 tweeter hurts in that equation either. It is what I am currently running.

 

One thing I noted on this forum was that the AL crossover has the -6db midrange attenuation others modify their AA’s (-3db) to have... 

 

Having been there, and done that it becomes a bit of a shell game without an end goal in mind. 

 

You COULD leave well enough alone, but IF you want to throw some cash at them, I don’t think you can go wrong with just the CT-120 tweeters, for starters, lol.

[OO1]

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[OO1]

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[jimjimbo]

4 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

By the way while some here on the forum will almost automatically proclaim 30 year old networks need capacitors replaced due to age I’ve seen no good proof that this is the case. @Trey Cannon who works at Klipsch has recently tested some older networks and so far the results indicate that most of those he has tested are still performing properly so capacitor replacement might be more a case of preventive maintenance rather than a automatic necessity based on age.

This is interesting.  I have two questions for you.

 

1.  If Trey is finding that there is "nothing" wrong with the older networks that he is testing, why is he also offering to rework networks for people that he knows are "good"?

2.  If you were offered two pairs of networks with the exact same circuitry, yet one had new capacitors that were of good quality and the same values as OEM, and the other pair was of the old oil can capacitors that were supposedly tested as good, which would you choose to install in your pair of (Belles)?

 

I can think of literally dozens of people (including myself) who have experienced much improved sound from their older vintage Belles, La Scalas, Khorns, Cornwalls, etc, etc, etc. after installing new good quality capacitors in their networks.  And, those who supposedly test their old oil cans and pronounce them "good" are likely only testing for their capacitance value, and not ESR, or at the correct frequencies, with a proper tester.  My perspective on this now, and always will be, if you don't try something new, you won't know what you are missing.

[OO1]

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[mikebse2a3]

2 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

1.  If Trey is finding that there is "nothing" wrong with the older networks that he is testing, why is he also offering to rework networks for people that he knows are "good"?

2.  If you were offered two pairs of networks with the exact same circuitry, yet one had new capacitors that were of good quality and the same values as OEM, and the other pair was of the old oil can capacitors that were supposedly tested as good, which would you choose to install in your pair of (Belles)?

#1.    Ask @Trey Cannon but my understanding is he was interested in helping people understand that just because capacitors are old doesn’t automatically mean they are bad and to back that up he offered to perform capacitor replacement on a limited # of networks and perform before and after test to see what the results were.

 

#2.    Depends Jim 🙂.  If your offering them for free or are you going to charge me... 😄.  

 

miketn

[MechEngVic]

Every speaker ever built has features that were a compromise, even Belles. That being said, the Belles had a lot FEWER compromises built into them than many, many other speakers. Improvements to a stock Belle can be made, but you're talking about incremental improvements costing significant amounts of time, measurement, and money; simple "swaptronics" won't do it. Belles are say, 90% perfect of design. The last 10% will be the most expensive and effort intensive.

 

I got to A/B Belle's and Chorus ii's back in the day. The Chorus ii's had 90% of the sound the Belles did at more than half the cost. I bought the Chorus ii's.