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Talk to me about La Scalas/Khorns/Jubilees


MarkKrochuck
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Can someone talk to me about La Scala Klipschorn and Jubilee performance.

 

I have the following three pairs of speakers (RF5s, RF7s, CP1 (Cornwalls) and neither have impressed me in the bass department. I feel like each one is probably off by about 6db of what they should be to be flat with the mids/highs. I quite like the mids and highs on all of them, the detail and realness. I dont find them bright, fatiguing, or shrill but the bass just doesnt match. 
 

My current setup:

Yamaha SACD player

bluetooth music player

Panamax power conditioner

AMC 3150a integrated amp (used as pre)

2x Bryston 4B used in bridged mono

Audio Technica record player

Klipsch RF7 mk1 or CP1 used in stereo

Klipsch R115SW sub

17’ x 36’ room

 

I grew up with a pair of rear loaded horn  speakers with 10” woofers on a Marantz 2235b and they blow any of my Klipsch’s out of water in the bass department and pounded your chest. Could I expect the same from Lascalas or Khorns?

 

I was considering building Jubilee bins but can’t find what would be the suitable 12” driver(s) to use.

 

Thanks

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Were those speakers "you grew up with" in the same room those uninspiring speakers were placed?

 

The listening room impacts the overall sound more than you can imagine. If you're running a subwoofer with those current speakers and you're disappointed, something else is going on.

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13 hours ago, MarkKrochuck said:

I was considering building Jubilee bins but can’t find what would be the suitable 12” driver(s) to use.

The plans on this forum for Jubilee bass bin clones have all had significant issues with low frequency extension, and all have required a large amount of boosting EQ below 100 Hz (this is first-hand information here) to compensate relative to the Klipsch-made Jubilee bass bins.  In other words, I don't recommend the DIY version made from plans on this forum.  You'd probably be wasting your time.

 

If you're thinking about low-cost alternatives to upgrading from your RF7s while still monoamping each loudspeaker, I'd recommend taking a look at the KPT (professional) series, namely the KPT-396 (actually a cinema surround loudspeaker), KPT-904-M (behind the screen), and KPT-942-M (behind the screen) in increasing bass and HF capability.  All have direct radiating bass and passive crossovers.

 

If you want horn loaded bass, then the Jubilee home version (KPT-KHJ-LF + K-402-HF) bi-amped using a DSP crossover would be my choice.  That subject can be further pursued in the following thread:

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

The plans on this forum for Jubilee bass bin clones have all had significant issues with low frequency extension, and all have required a large amount of boosting EQ below 100 Hz (this is first-hand information here) to compensate relative to the Klipsch-made Jubilee bass bins.  In other words, I don't recommend the DIY version made from plans on this forum.  You'd probably be wasting your time.

 

If you're thinking about low-cost alternatives to upgrading from your RF7s while still monoamping each loudspeaker, I'd recommend taking a look at the KPT (professional) series, namely the KPT-396 (actually a cinema surround loudspeaker), KPT-904-M (behind the screen), and KPT-942-M (behind the screen) in increasing bass and HF capability.  All have direct radiating bass and passive crossovers.

 

If you want horn loaded bass, then the Jubilee home version (KPT-KHJ-LF + K-402-HF) bi-amped using a DSP crossover would be my choice.  That subject can be further pursued in the following thread:

 

Chris

Wow Chris thanks for this info, I will research in the next bit

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I agree with Chris that building DIY Jubilees may not be an overall good idea.

 

I strongly disagree that "all" the DIY builds have been somehow compromised compared to the factory builds. I can think of a few, including my own, where the bass is certainly consistent with the factory measures.

Yes, many of the plans shown on the forum have inaccuracies and substituting drivers may not be a good idea.

 

However back to the OP's observation that the Cornwalls did not have sufficient bass. That is odd. If they think there is not enough (amount not quality) bass from a Cornwall, then perhaps none of the Heritage models will satisfy their needs. The Cornwall is not bass-shy (yes, this is said with all the qualifications that they need to be set up properly etc ....).

 

At this point, the OP probably needs to actually hear some of the heritage offerings.

 

Good luck,

-Tom

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23 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

...However back to the OP's observation that the Cornwalls did not have sufficient bass. That is odd.

 

The OP hasn't provided a picture or a hand-drawn drawing of his listening room (with length, width, AND height dimensions) and indicating loudspeaker positions in-room. Assuming that the OP knows something about small room acoustics, one can conclude that the tendency is toward bass heaviness  rather than accuracy of reproduction-i.e., flat SPL response as measured in-room.  That's why I recommended the KPT-904s or KPT-942s, which can easily be made to produce large amounts of bass in-room if the user chooses.

 

23 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

I strongly disagree that "all" the DIY builds have been somehow compromised compared to the factory builds.

As far as your advice of the day, I've helped to EQ at least four different setups with homemade Jubilee bass bins, three installations of which were bought from the same gentleman who lives in OK. All required similar types and amounts of boosting EQ and all were made from the plans in the following thread which apparently has a serious issues acoustically:

 

I don't think it wise to propagate that same error over and over again.  It's actually heartbreaking to have to deal with--and I wouldn't like to deal with it--yet again.

 

13 minutes ago, MarkKrochuck said:

Is the Jubilee an actual Klipsch product or a DIY?...

Read the thread that I posted:

 

Chris

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38 minutes ago, MarkKrochuck said:

Is the Jubilee an actual Klipsch product or a DIY? Do you happen to live near me (Niagara Falls Canada)

No sorry but I am close to Ontario (California):). And yes the Jubilees are bonafide Klipsch products. There is a thread of locations of Jubilee owners. And most would love to audition them for you, just don't know if anyone is close enough. @HPower you don't have Jubes anymore do you?

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La Scala:  Articulate HF and mid-bass, can play at loud levels with minimum distortion.  Sounds best with subs, and in particular a sub which is horn loaded.

 

Khorn:  Same characteristic sound as LS in the HF and mid-bass area and the horn bass bin is so strong you might not need a sub.  Khorns are very particular to corner placement.

 

Jubes:  This is a Klipsch product.  I have not heard one but from everything I've read they are generally considered to be the best of the bunch.

 

I formerly owned Khorns and La Scala's.

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" ....

As far as your advice of the day, I've helped to EQ at least four different setups with homemade Jubilee bass bins, three installations of which were bought from the same gentleman who lives in OK. All required similar types and amounts of boosting EQ and all were made from the plans in the following thread which apparently has a serious issues acoustically:

..."

   Okay, so I now know where this is coming from. As I recall, the fellow in OK was using Klipsch R&D to build and sell cabinets for his own commercial profit ( if I have not remembered this correctly, then somebody please correct me). He acknowledged  that he was deviating (he said "correcting") the plans in his own builds. The original plans posted the forum had some problems (perhaps minor), what his deviations were are unknown (but I am suspicious because his profit margin seemed pretty low, if he was taking the time to build them carefully). IIRC, he was not using the correct drivers either (again I may not be remembering this correctly).

 

As far as the "my advice of the day" comment goes, I have no idea how to take that. So I will ignore the tone of the comment.

 

Good Luck,

-Tom

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I have owned all but Jubilees in the klipsch Heritage line, I have owned a few of them multiple times. NONE of them will produce  "Kick you in the chest Bass" straight outta the box. You might try Bi amping the cornwall which will allow you to add more power to the bass alone perhaps improving on it. 

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2 hours ago, Chris A said:

 

The OP hasn't provided a picture or a hand-drawn drawing of his listening room (with length, width, AND height dimensions) and indicating loudspeaker positions in-room. Assuming that the OP knows something about small room acoustics, one can conclude that the tendency is toward bass heaviness  rather than accuracy of reproduction-i.e., flat SPL response as measured in-room.  That's why I recommended the KPT-904s or KPT-942s, which can easily be made to produce large amounts of bass in-room if the user chooses.

 

As far as your advice of the day, I've helped to EQ at least four different setups with homemade Jubilee bass bins, three installations of which were bought from the same gentleman who lives in OK. All required similar types and amounts of boosting EQ and all were made from the plans in the following thread which apparently has a serious issues acoustically:

 

I don't think it wise to propagate that same error over and over again.  It's actually heartbreaking to have to deal with--and I wouldn't like to deal with it--yet again.

 

Read the thread that I posted:

 

Chris


my setup was posted above. 36’ long by 17’ wide by 7.5’ tall basement room. Closed doors. Speakers and gear set up on short wall (17’). 

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1 hour ago, MarkKrochuck said:

my setup was posted above. 36’ long by 17’ wide by 7.5’ tall basement room. Closed doors. Speakers and gear set up on short wall (17’). 

That's a long room compares to the height and width. The following chart would tell you the relative bass reproduction goodness based on the relative ratios of the room (2.26 and 4.8), which is off-scale on this chart:

 

Optimal room ratios for 100 cubic metre room.JPG

 

Your room is approximately 130 cubic metres in volume, so the chart is close enough in terms of overall volume but not wide or tall enough to show the effects of that very long dimension.  Dark areas indicate good, white areas--least good. 

 

My experiences with long rooms (especially of the 36 feet dimension) is that they actually can work well, but they tend to eat the bass performance of the loudspeakers (my room is 15.5 x 40 x 9 feet [152 cubic metres of volume]--which makes the ratios 1:1.7:4.4--which is also off the chart). 

 

So if it's any consolation, I don't believe that the room itself is much of an issue.  Perhaps exact placement of the loudspeakers along the short wall might be a factor, but my experience is that deep bass room modes are actually not accentuated by these room dimensions--in fact the very low frequencies and impulse events are more transparent than in shorter rooms which have to deal with a returning longitudinal wave sooner than a longer room.  I actually get a sense of ambiance while playing impulsive music and very low frequencies--such as pipe organ, where I can actually hear the returning longitudinal reflection from the back of the room, and it certainly adds to the sense of space acoustically.  The side wall dimension is very common (15.5 to your 17 feet) so no real scaling issues there. But the 7.5 high ceiling might be an issue.  That gives a half wavelength at 75 Hz, which may be part of a possible bass perception issue. But no show-stoppers there.

 

So, bottom line...If you perceive a lack of bass support, it could be because you need more diaphragm or horn mouth area for that volume of room.  The choices that I gave you above (KPT dual 15" woofer bass bins and the Jubilee bass bins in particular) will at least double the amount of bass diaphragm/horn mouth area of the Cornwalls.  You apparently need more horn mouth or woofer area. 

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

That's a long room compares to the height and width. The following chart would tell you the relative bass reproduction goodness based on the relative ratios of the room (2.26 and 4.8), which is off-scale on this chart:

 

Optimal room ratios for 100 cubic metre room.JPG

 

Your room is approximately 130 cubic metres in volume, so the chart is close enough in terms of overall volume but not wide or tall enough to show the effects of that very long dimension.  Dark areas indicate good, white areas--least good. 

 

My experiences with long rooms (especially of the 36 feet dimension) is that they actually can work well, but they tend to eat the bass performance of the loudspeakers (my room is 15.5 x 40 x 9 feet [152 cubic metres of volume]--which makes the ratios 1:1.7:4.4--which is also off the chart). 

 

So if it's any consolation, I don't believe that the room itself is much of an issue.  Perhaps exact placement of the loudspeakers along the short wall might be a factor, but my experience is that deep bass room modes are actually not accentuated by these room dimensions--in fact the very low frequencies and impulse events are more transparent than in shorter rooms which have to deal with a returning longitudinal wave sooner than a longer room.  I actually get a sense of ambiance while playing impulsive music and very low frequencies--such as pipe organ, where I can actually hear the returning longitudinal reflection from the back of the room, and it certainly adds to the sense of space acoustically.  The side wall dimension is very common (15.5 to your 17 feet) so no real scaling issues there. But the 7.5 high ceiling might be an issue.  That gives a half wavelength at 75 Hz, which may be part of a possible bass perception issue. But no show-stoppers there.

 

So, bottom line...If you perceive a lack of bass support, it could be because you need more diaphragm or horn mouth area for that volume of room.  The choices that I gave you above (KPT dual 15" woofer bass bins and the Jubilee bass bins in particular) will at least double the amount of bass diaphragm/horn mouth area of the Cornwalls.  You apparently need more horn mouth or woofer area. 

 

YMMV.

 

Chris


Im not entirely sure, going to lug the old Marantz over from my parents to see if its maybe a preamplifier issue I may be having because the subwoofer hits nicely, just nothing else. After that I may bring over the old read loaded horns but literally have like 5 pairs of huge speakers in the basement right now hahahaha.

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On 1/27/2020 at 1:15 PM, MarkKrochuck said:

Is the Jubilee an actual Klipsch product or a DIY? Do you happen to live near me (Niagara Falls Canada)

I live in St Catharines (15 mins from ya :) ). I have LaScala ll's. First thing to note is horn loaded bass is a lot different than direct radiating. Took me a while to get used to it.

But now I prefer it much over the former. LS's only go down to 50htz so I have a pair of 15 inch subs. LS's have the same top end as the K-Horns(or very close) but don't go down as deep.

Jub's are on a diff lvl all together from what I've read.

My next project  needs to be acquiring/building a pair of horn loaded subs.

If you want to drop by for a listen to get a baseline starting point for a reference just send me a PM.

Rest of my gear is below in my sig.

 

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On 2/2/2020 at 9:54 AM, RadBlue said:

I live in St Catharines (15 mins from ya :) ). I have LaScala ll's. First thing to note is horn loaded bass is a lot different than direct radiating. Took me a while to get used to it.

But now I prefer it much over the former. LS's only go down to 50htz so I have a pair of 15 inch subs. LS's have the same top end as the K-Horns(or very close) but don't go down as deep.

Jub's are on a diff lvl all together from what I've read.

My next project  needs to be acquiring/building a pair of horn loaded subs.

If you want to drop by for a listen to get a baseline starting point for a reference just send me a PM.

Rest of my gear is below in my sig.

 


I pm’d you. Thanks!!

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