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Are Your Capacitors Installed Backwards ??


Kreg

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Do you think any cap we see on a speaker crossover can transfer 1500 A. peaks through it's tiny terminals

 

At 8 ohms, that’s 18 million watts peak. How ironic considering the kind of amp you run. 

 

So far, you haven’t said a single thing that makes sense in ANY context. 

 

Your critique of my build is some of the funniest stuff I’ve ever read. Thanks for that. 

 

Why not build a simple first order network, with crossover points of 400 and 6000? Send it around and we’ll let you know what we think.

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 I did read the spec sheet on the GTO cap. The use is as a damper on the gate of IGBT or other switchgear devises. Suspect it is lossy, this is how the snubbing or dampening characteristic is achieved.

  I am not adding to the crossovers in my LS ii. The film caps used by Klipsch are large.

 The caps are used to limit the bandwidth applied to each driver. This is a filter and not a power supply. Those GTO caps if ultra low impedance could be great in a power supply. But a wound cap that physically large should have high inductance. That is where stacked film caps shine.

  I am going to try one of the many ideas you have shared with us. Not ordering an GTOcaps from Mouser, heading to Golf Galaxy forisolations devices, ordering a load of M22759/11 from eBay. 

  But am headed to the attic to gather some Canare 4S11 cable. Currently have the LS ii bi-wired with Canare 4S8 quad cable. Used as two pair, not as quad. This is 4x 16 ga. About 10’. The 4S11 cable is 4x14 ga wire. Will Open My Ears to see is going from 16 ga to 14 ga wires makes a change. The factory wiring used by Klipsch inside looks to be about 12 ga. Clear PVC insulated stranded wire. 

  I normally prefer smaller ga wiring. Less is More. But honestly have not compared in a long time. 

  I am going to make a bi-wire set out of 4S6 too. This is 4x20 ga. My math tells me this will work fine also. The speakers are high pass limited at 60 Hz. The efficiency is 105 dB at 1 watt. So maybe 100 mW to handle the 95 dB peaks. With dielectric effects, some capacitance slewing, and other non linear effects maybe 50 mA current spikes. I think 20 ga wire at 10’ can do that without breaking a sweat. 

  I will let my ears decide if there is a difference between 20, 16, and 14 ga speaker wire used with a Klipsch speaker.

  If the 14 ga is a clear winner the 4S11 can be connected like a Star Quad to yield 11 ga cable with intrinsic noise rejection for connecting to  the 15 inch driver. The 4S8 connected in a quad configuration is equivalent to 13 ga for the crossover splitting the K-55 and K-77. 

  I like having the bi-wire cable in a single sheath. But this is about sound quality. 

  

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Overreacting? Lol. 

 

You accused me of having an agenda because I build for money, which is kind of silly, since I’m well established here, and I’m not about to steal your thunder by following your ridiculous build principles - and I don’t expect anyone to ever ask me to build with 8 awg wire. 

 

I wasn’t asking you go into business, but issued a challenge to build something for people here to listen to and evaluate - something I’ve done several times over the years. Who pays? Why you do!

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5 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Did you read RWF's bio and home page. .  That puts the question, and also the questioner,  in perspective. 

Yes I did.  Are you going to insult me more without knowing a thing about me?  I also performed with Doc Severinson and many others.  He sounds like a great guy, but you seem to be painting yourself into a corner.

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regarding the GTO cap's inductance - might that manifest itself in the audible range?  I have a cheap ESR meter somewhere but its test leads and connections are dismal rendering it junk.

 

for what little its worth - the 5.6uF GTO cap next to a 6.8uF motor run.  WT3's test lead inductance can have some influence around 20KHz.

 

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3 hours ago, Panelhead said:

 

  But am headed to the attic to gather some Canare 4S11 cable. Currently have the LS ii bi-wired with Canare 4S8 quad cable. Used as two pair, not as quad. This is 4x 16 ga. About 10’. The 4S11 cable is 4x14 ga wire. Will Open My Ears to see is going from 16 ga to 14 ga wires makes a change. The factory wiring used by Klipsch inside looks to be about 12 ga. Clear PVC insulated stranded wire. 

  I normally prefer smaller ga wiring. Less is More. But honestly have not compared in a long time. 

  I am going to make a bi-wire set out of 4S6 too. This is 4x20 ga. My math tells me this will work fine also. The speakers are high pass limited at 60 Hz. The efficiency is 105 dB at 1 watt. So maybe 100 mW to handle the 95 dB peaks. With dielectric effects, some capacitance slewing, and other non linear effects maybe 50 mA current spikes. I think 20 ga wire at 10’ can do that without breaking a sweat. 

  I will let my ears decide if there is a difference between 20, 16, and 14 ga speaker wire used with a Klipsch speaker.

  If the 14 ga is a clear winner the 4S11 can be connected like a Star Quad to yield 11 ga cable with intrinsic noise rejection for connecting to  the 15 inch driver. The 4S8 connected in a quad configuration is equivalent to 13 ga for the crossover splitting the K-55 and K-77. 

  I like having the bi-wire cable in a single sheath. But this is about sound quality. 

  

 

According to what I have read and experienced, to get an audible difference by changing speaker cable size, with medium-sensitivity speakers, say around 95 dB/W/m, it takes a jump of at least 2 sizes, like 18AWG to 14AWG, or 16AWG to 12AWG.  With the more sensitive Klipsch speakers, with their smaller electrical demands, you might have to increase the size by 3 steps to hear an obvious difference.  There will be an improvement with the leading edges of sharp sounds, but it's not a day and night change, just enough to give you a small sense of satisfaction.

 

When I first went from 18 gauge lamp cord to 12 gauge speaker cable (with my non-Klipsch 95-dB speakers), I heard a definite improvement in transient response.  Drums, in particular, sounded more realistic.  Later, when I found 8AWG cable at a reasonable price (and in twisted pair configuration, which should be a good thing), I went for it, reasoning that this would be a possible weak link in the system addressed, and I could sit relaxed on my sofa and listen happily, without feeling any nagging doubts that there was a loose end that I'd ignored.  

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Right now, I'm watching Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and that last comment made me feel like I was in the episode.

 

I am aware that the wiring inside the speaker is not large, but although the flow of electrons is often described as being similar to the flow of water, when it comes to resistance, the metaphor falls down.  While a single reduction in pipe inside diameter restricts flow by a certain amount, whether it's just a washer in the pipe, or a length of pipe of smaller inside diameter, makes no difference.  The restriction is what it is.

 

With current flowing in wires, it's different.  The resistance varies as the length of the smaller wire.  A long section of smaller wire has more resistance than a short length, so the short lengths of smaller wire inside the speakers do not negate any advantage gained by using larger speaker cable. With the larger speaker cable, during high-demand instants, a little bit more current arrives at the speaker terminals, almost as if the amplifier was a little bit more powerful, especially when the music has loud and sharp peaks that call for more headroom than the rest of the music.   As well, Klipsch now uses larger wire in its speakers than it used to, from probably 16 gauge in the original La Scalas to 12 gauge in the La Scala IIs.  This suggests that they agree with this concept.

 

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5 hours ago, Deang said:

I wasn’t asking you go into business, but issued a challenge to build something for people here to listen to and evaluate - something I’ve done several times over the years. Who pays? Why you do!

Kind of like put up or shut up works best. You want people to believe in what you are doing you need to be willing to prove it with more than words. So build a set of these bad boys and send them on to your audience here. You will get them back or an offer to buy them which you can do or not do and get valuable feedback in the process.

  What are you using for meters to check values with or do you just assume the values on the caps and inductors is correct according to ear tuning? If you have no real measured idea of the values of your components how would you ever make two that would sound the same anyway? How do you even know the alnico in those old Altec woofers is right to begin with?

  People don't want to hear crazy unprovable things they want to hear about things that work and can be reliably duplicated by known standards so if they choose to do it they know ahead of time what will happen.

  I think your "earometer Multimeter" does not provide any evidence to rely on but you are an entertaining read.

 

3 hours ago, Islander said:

Later, when I found 8AWG cable at a reasonable price (and in twisted pair configuration, which should be a good thing), I went for it, reasoning that this would be a possible weak link in the system addressed, and I could sit relaxed on my sofa and listen happily, without feeling any nagging doubts that there was a loose end that I'd ignored.  

I have tried the twisted pair idea in some Fortes and Chorus rebuilds. The idea sounded good to me and makes sense I just never could hear any difference to speak of. I have gone back to just leaving the OEM wire in place. Sure does seem to be puny gages of wire though but it's not like they are handling big loads I guess. I ended up with 12g wire so I could pull off the same 100' spool for short and longer runs and not have to worry. Seems to be more than enough for what I do and 8g is what my portable Miller Tig welder uses for leads so it is probably overkill. So is the 12g too but it does look nice sitting there and can't hurt anything.

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

I have tried the twisted pair idea in some Fortes and Chorus rebuilds. The idea sounded good to me and makes sense I just never could hear any difference to speak of. I have gone back to just leaving the OEM wire in place. Sure does seem to be puny gages of wire though but it's not like they are handling big loads I guess. I ended up with 12g wire so I could pull off the same 100' spool for short and longer runs and not have to worry. Seems to be more than enough for what I do and 8g is what my portable Miller Tig welder uses for leads so it is probably overkill. So is the 12g too but it does look nice sitting there and can't hurt anything.

 

So you're referring to the wiring inside the speaker?  As I mentioned in an earlier post, the length of the crossover-to-driver wires is so short that its resistance is less significant than that of the amp-to-crossover cables.  But hey, why not go for it?  My comments are about the cables between the power amps and drivers.  With the JubScalas, the original crossovers are disconnected, and the job of the crossovers is done by the active electronic processor.  The speaker cables on those speakers run directly from the bass amp to within a foot of the woofers, and from the treble amp directly to the tweeter driver terminals. 

 

I don't know if I could hear any difference from the twisted pair construction either, but maybe there isn't all the much RFI floating around all the wires and cables in my system for it to cancel.  The phone companies use twisted pair wires for a reason, so if it costs about the same as side-by-side cables, why not go for it?

 

As for the 12 gauge, that's the smallest size I use in either system, living room or bedroom.  As you say, it can't hurt, and it looks good.  The 8 and 10 gauge for the woofers and tweeters on the JubScala IIs?  Well, those are kind of maximum speakers (yes, I'm aware of Jubilee and MWM setups), so they deserve maximum cables.  There's no point in cheaping out after going to the trouble and expense of putting together those speakers and their associated electronics, so they ensure that the speaker cables will be neither weak links nor bottlenecks between the amps and speakers.  And they really look the business.

 

In assessing whether a change to a sound system's parts made a difference in its sound, the difference may have to be something on the order of maybe 10%, for the sake of discussion.  A small change that makes a 2% difference may seem to do nothing, since the difference is inaudible.  However, if you make five 2% changes, you will hear the difference.  That's why making seemingly minor changes can be worthwhile, even if the proverbial wife in the kitchen wouldn't hear any difference.

 

That's how I feel about it.  If someone else feels that lamp cord is sufficient for his speakers, fine.  I don't care.  So if I say I prefer bigger cables, that has no effect on anyone else.  There should be no need to justify something like that to anyone who doesn't feel the same.  Right? And yet, it always becomes a hot topic.  Pity.

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