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3thernet

Quadraphonic Klipsch La Scala System In Music Club

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Hello Klipsch Audio Community,

 

I run a small independent music venue that hosts electroacoustic performances as well as club nights. Our house sound system is comprised of 4 La Scala speakers with 8 matching bass cabinets in a quadraphonic array. I have been running this system on budget (yorkville) amplifiers which have sounded great thus far, but I have recently decided to upgrade the amplifier to really get the room sounding as good as possible. The space is a second floor wood warehouse and the ceiling and walls have all been insulated with sound proofing material – the room sounds fantastic however I know that the amps are my current bottle-neck for making it sound even better.

So my question to the community is what amplifiers would be ideal in this situation, considering the speakers are used somewhat industrially (typically around 100 dBa). I'm especially intrigued by by switching to tube amps, however I don't necessarily care for legacy brands such as McIntosh where I feel like name adds a premium onto the cost... Or maybe I'm wrong?

(Please ignore speakers in centre of room)

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Edited by 3thernet
accidentally published before being complete

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Welcome to the forum.  I can't say that I've ever heard of those amps, prior to you mentioning them in your post so I have zero opinion if they are good or bad.  Do you have any pro audio shops around that offer other amps that you could try prior to purchasing anything?  You may not have a problem that requires fixing.

 

I also can't say that I've seen any commercial application with tube amps and if you're considering that, i would absolutely wait for some of the tube guys to chime in, and want to test amps out before dropping any coin.  

 

I might also consider what a sub/or subs, might do to really give the system a boost where needed.  Have you ever done any measuring in the room and what your current system is actually doing in the room?  That could also tell you a ton about what is and isn't going on and how best to approach improving things overall.

 

Just some thoughts for you to consider.  

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Have you thought about class D modules?  They are very efficient, meaning that they will produce a lot less heat when loaded, and therefore also last a long time without failures.  The gold standard in class D modules is currently Hypex Ncore, and there are several available used (already in enclosures) if you look at Hifishark.com.  The performance tests that I've seen on these modules is really outstanding. Additionally, ICEpower makes very good class D amplifier modules that cost much less than NCore.

 

I see a lot of pro amplifiers used in commercial venues, but I believe that a lot of that kind of thinking is simply based on past use of class A/AB type of topologies that have been around for decades. 

 

The issue with tubes is that they tend to fail from time to time, sometimes catastrophically.  I'd actually recommend tri-amping with a good DSP crossover in order to be able to limit overloads to the tweeters, to isolate the back EMF of the woofers from the midrange and tweeter circuits, and also isolate thermal heating issues (voice coils) to the woofers which tend to change the crossover frequencies and other characteristics when loaded heavily (and 100 dB is actually pretty loud). Tri-amping with DSP crossovers allows you to also correct for in-room EQ issues and correct the time delays of the non-time-aligned drivers.  If you'd like to know more about this approach, send me a PM.  I've helped quite a few people dial-in their setups (via email--you take the REW measurements in-room and email, I send back DSP crossover settings). This is done in a few iterations until the everything is dialed in to your satisfaction.  The result is much, much better than just substituting using tube amplifiers.

 

Chris

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On 2/8/2020 at 10:58 PM, 3thernet said:

Our house sound system is comprised of 4 La Scala speakers with 8 matching bass cabinets in a quadraphonic array.

Welcome to the forums.  I'm not qualified to give you advice on a pro setup but I do have a question.

 

You say you have a quadraphonic array.  Quadraphonic is an outdated but specific audio format.  I rather suspect you mean four speaker w/bass cabs.  This might mean a 4-speaker setup, or four mono setups.  Can you clarify what you have in mind?  It might help the other guys guide you with what amps you might need.

+++

 

I'm hoping @Chris A will comment on this, but what about the idea of using a Berhinger 6000?  I think it can handle 4 La Scala's.  Or Crown, QSC, etc.  Cheap and easy for a non-audio engineer to use.

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As much as I like what tubes can do with LaScalas (or lots of other speakers), for the type of venue you are having, solid state, i.e., class a/b, or the newer class D amps of various types, would reall suit your needs better.

 

The LaScalas will still sound great. That should be an awesome room when finished.

 

 

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On 2/8/2020 at 10:58 PM, 3thernet said:

 I have been running this system on budget (yorkville) amplifiers which have sounded great thus far,

 

 

Yorkville is the Canadian equivalent of Peavey or Traynor. Solid and reliable.

 

My main concern, if this venue is north of the border, is whether or not there is adequate ventilation for the byproducts from the intermission pastime!

 

I can’t walk the streets of The 6ix without getting a contact high from passersby...  

 

...now where did I put my munchies?

 

 

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Speaking to brand SS, it is a good time to mention Crown amps as

an alternative...

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I'd recommend a stack of four Crown XLS series; 1000 or 1002 will be fine.  You can use their built in crossover filters to cut the highs going to the extra bass horns and cut the lows below 40 Hz to your La Scalas.  Two bass horns on one channel is fine. 

 

I believe you will get more low bass it you will place the extra bass horns side by side on the floor, tight in the corner and the La Scala on top.  Besides room reinforcement, having the mouths as close as possible to each other makes them behave as though they were larger than they are.  Also, consider 3 bass bins and a La Scala in a cube in the front of the house for the ultimate in the mouth reinforcement effect and a bass bin and La Scala for support in the rear.  That might well get you to 40 Hz (low E) solidly in the front. 

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Hi! We run a combination of KI396 and KI215 currently, in four point, and will be adding some LSIs soooon. So this topic is v interesting. 

I can’t say that the current line of Crown budget amps are pristine, in fact, their built in processing more or less sucks. Very basic. Sound of them is not a huge vibe. Also - behringer! Noooo. That guy is a snake and his gear sucks. That said, he owns LabGruppen, and...

 

From a pro audio perspective, you really can’t mess with Lab.Gruppen. Their PLM amplifiers are superb, and the Lake processing in them epic. 2 of them would do the job. Bring a bank loan. :)
 

Someone suggested tri-amping and time aligning using something akin to smaart- yes - this is also a solid idea. In fact, it’s a bloody good one. If you can track down Crest CA series amplifiers, you could run a set of 7/8/9 on their respective drivers. Mad value, solid sound. Linea Research do some great processors, also, if you stumble on some second hand BSS, you’ll be ok too. 
 

Good luck with it!

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On 2/8/2020 at 10:58 PM, 3thernet said:

Hello Klipsch Audio Community,

 

I run a small independent music venue that hosts electroacoustic performances as well as club nights. Our house sound system is comprised of 4 La Scala speakers with 8 matching bass cabinets in a quadraphonic array. I have been running this system on budget (yorkville) amplifiers which have sounded great thus far,
 

take it to the next level -----Crown Drivecore  series        

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On 7/24/2020 at 1:57 AM, RandyH000 said:

take it to the next level -----Crown Drivecore series

Yanks and their tanks! If you’re spending drivecore cash, Lab PLM or Camco offers much better tech and sound quality I reckon 😂

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On 2/8/2020 at 10:58 PM, 3thernet said:

Our house sound system is comprised of 4 La Scala speakers with 8 matching bass cabinets in a quadraphonic array.

 

Please elaborate on the “8 matching bass cabinets.”  

 

As others have suggested, I would NOT consider tube amps for that application.  Suggestions regarding class-D chip amps make sense.  I would not dismiss Behringer iNukes out of hand.  Sure their power ratings are hyperbolic, but they are cool running class-D with plenty of power for La Scalas.  They are relatively inexpensive, as well as light weight.  They could always be kept in reserve for emergencies.

 

In the 70s, I used four 8 ohm factory built Speakerlab SKhorns (Klipschorn knockoffs) in a mobile DJ business.  With two in parallel per channel, the four ohm load drew 300 watts per channel from a Dynaco ST-400 amp.  The backs of the bass horns were closed in with plywood, which helped when good corners were not available, which was most of the time.  They were best when tucked into proper corners.  That setup provided plenty of loud and clear music in venues ranging from frat house dining rooms to high school gymnasiums.  Your permanent space should sound consistently good.

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9 hours ago, Vivi said:

Yanks and their tanks! If you’re spending drivecore cash, Lab PLM or Camco offers much better tech and sound quality I reckon 😂

 

 

do you own any 2-4-8 channels  Crown Drivecore amps ?  and which series did you test ?

Crown Drivecore  have a series of 2-4-8 Channels amps for recording studios  , do you know of another brand that does , at the same price , and quality point   ?

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

 

 

do you own any 2-4-8 channels  Crown Drivecore amps ?  and which series did you test ?

Crown Drivecore  have a series of 2-4-8 Channels amps for recording studios  , do you know of another brand that does , at the same price , and quality point   ?

 

 

 

The DCi? Yyyyeaaaahhh... I've listened to them! I wouldn't touch XLS for "audiophile" applications, but that is a personal thing. :)

 

Lab.Gruppen PLM 5k44 is the direct comparison, about $2k USD if you have a friendly dealer. 10 year warranty, Lake Processing inbuilt, solid as a rock. Will last a lifetime if not taken on tour. Pristine sound. (Bias warning - Lake is Australian lol)

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, DizRotus said:

 

Please elaborate on the “8 matching bass cabinets.”  

 

As others have suggested, I would NOT consider tube amps for that application.  Suggestions regarding class-D chip amps make sense.  I would not dismiss Behringer iNukes out of hand.  Sure their power ratings are hyperbolic, but they are cool running class-D with plenty of power for La Scalas.  They are relatively inexpensive, as well as light weight.  They could always be kept in reserve for emergencies.

 

In the 70s, I used four 8 ohm factory built Speakerlab SKhorns (Klipschorn knockoffs) in a mobile DJ business.  With two in parallel per channel, the four ohm load drew 300 watts per channel from a Dynaco ST-400 amp.  The backs of the bass horns were closed in with plywood, which helped when good corners were not available, which was most of the time.  They were best when tucked into proper corners.  That setup provided plenty of loud and clear music in venues ranging from frat house dining rooms to high school gymnasiums.  Your permanent space should sound consistently good.

 

If you're on a mad budget, the NX1000 Berry is, um, ok! Again, 10 year warranty... at $25 a year that ain't bad. You'll probably replace a few, lol

 

That SKHorn rig sounds amazing. Nice!

 

Also, the bass cabinets are probably copies of the bass section of the LSI split, yeah?

Edited by Vivi
LSI split reference :)

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8 minutes ago, Vivi said:

The DCi? Yyyyeaaaahhh...

wrong answer ------try again

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1 hour ago, Vivi said:

 

 

 

Also, the bass cabinets are probably copies of the bass section of the LSI split, yeah?

no , they are copies of  khorns -

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1 hour ago, RandyH000 said:

wrong answer ------try again

 

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/product_families/drivecore-install-analog-series

 

Not sure how wrong I am here! LOL. If you're referring to the prosumer XLS:

 

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/product_families/xls-drivecore-2-series

 

Again, these ain't pro amps really. 

 

1 hour ago, RandyH000 said:

no , they are copies of  khorns -

 

A look at the photos in the first post clearly show that they are exactly the same size in width and depth as the LS on top. So can't be KHorn.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Also, it's all subjective here... I've spent about 10 years in pro audio so that's my only qualifier. Have owned and run Turbo, d&b and now settled on Klipsch.

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