B&K amp vs amps in Japanese receivers.

[ZDoug]

After Looking into the question of what receiver or separates to buy for use in my 100% HT I am close to deciding on the new B&k 507 (if it is ever available). My thinking is that the processors must be very similar in quality to the Japanese flagship receivers. I know B&K uses Motorola.I don't know what Denon/Pioneer uses but unless someone tells me otherwise I am assuming the Motorola is as good or better. As far as the post Processing all models I considered are THX ultra 2 so I assume that's a push.I lean toward B&K because of the Amplifier.I have heard that they are more open and less harsh than Japanese amps.Do most agree? I also read a comment from one of you that the B&k has 3 pairs of Mosfet amps while the Pioneer 49tx has only one set(2 vs 6). Can anyone verify that? I can't find the info on Pioneer or B&K web site.Finally I have heard that the power supply(transformer?) is better in the B&K vs Japanese amps. I'm not sure what that means but can someone tell me how I would verify.The only bad thing I heard about B&k is they run very hot.I hope the 507 has dealt with that problem or is that unique to B&k amps? Thanks. This is a major purchase for me and I don't want to make a big mistake.

[prodj101]

Just because it has japenese processors doesn't make it bad. I have a B&K preamp and love it. And in my opinion, the B&K receivers roast all other receivers on the market.

[MrMcGoo]

ZDoug,

The AVR-307 is reputed to have a better amp section than any other receiver. They use 3 pairs of MOS-FETs (per channel) to Pioneer's one pair (per channel for 7 channels). I assume that the 507 will use the same or better amps. The power transformer is huge etc.

The AVR-307 has a reputation for making a slight poping sound when changing processing modes, e.g., when changing from PL II to DD 5.1. B&K told owners that they did not want a quieting circuit to degrade sound quality when not in use.

The B&K flagship forum gives B&K good marks for service and support.

The Denon amd Pioneer flagships have excellent processing with three microrpocessors. Denon's 5803 uses dual Hammerheads and a Motorola. On the other hand, the Pioneer VSX-49TXi has a 32 bit Shark preprocessor for decoding, a 48 bit double precision Motorola sound processor and a second 32 bit Shark for room equilization. The room equilization feature really works. The Pioneer has the lowest noise and harmonic distortion in independent tests. This is a major factor with very high sensitivity Kilpsch speakers IMO.

I run a B&K ST2140 2 channel amp with my 49TX to give me better dynamics with my RF-7s. This is contrary to the conventional wisdom to use a 3 or 7 channel amp. The 2 channel B&K happaned to give perfect balance to the 49 as near as I can measure or hear.

Any of the three flagships from Denon, B&K and Pioneer will sound great with Klipsch IMO. I have listened to all 3 at Magnolia.

The deciding factor for me was the room correction on the Pioneer. Today, Pioneer has one uped the industry with TI Firewire to decode copy protected DVD-A and SACD in the receiver.

Bill

[boa12]

zdoug, i liked the b&k sound w/ klipsch so much i bot the ref 30 & 7270 power amp. excellent clarity yet not harsh on the mid/highs. clean tight bass too. from what i hear, b&k uses the same circuitry & components in the receivers as the equivalent pre/pro.

in the case of the 507 that should be the new ref 50 pre/pro. i've found the manual for that (attached below). also check over at hometheaterforum.com

as bill says, b&k told me the same. no noise filters or mute circuits are used because they can make the sound lower quality & the circuitry less discrete causing crosstalk between channels.

disclaimer: again, you really need to demo tham at least somewhere else, or its essentially a roll of the dice of how you'll like 'em. also unauthorized dealers won't get you the 5 year warranty direct from b&k. i admit i went online, unauthorized to buy, but i listened to 'em at another guy w/ the ref 30 & klipsch 1st.

Ref_50_manual.pdf

[sunbeam64]

ZD,

checked the basic schematic on my VSX-47TX, pretty similar to the 49TX, shows 4 power amps one each for fronts,center,surrounds,surround backs.

When driven at moderate levels my reciever generates alot of heat, believe manual recommends 9+ inches headroom above.

Dan

[jdm56]

I just wish the top Pioneer and Denon receiver's multi-channel DVD-A and SACD capability would filter down to their more affordable products. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, that's a mandatory feature to be truly forseeable-future proof. It will hopefully be common in all receivers and processors before too long.

[boa12]

techie ?: though the dvd-audio (mlp) decoder is in the receiver, wouldn't it still be limited by the copywrite protection (48k sampling rate max) from the dvd player digital output? or are some players such as the denon 9000 getting around that too?

[MrMcGoo]

Boa,

The 96 kHz sampling rate is used via firewire on the Pioneer flagships. True hi-res audio with bass management has arrived.

ZDoug et al,

I have editeded my prior post on this thread to clarify that there are 3 pairs of MOS-FETs per channel on B&K to one pair per channel on all 7 channels on the Pioneer.

Bill

[boa12]

bill, you mean on the pioneer dvdp w/ firewire? so if any dvdp has the firewire connection then it will output over 48k to like 96k or 192k? iow, my concern would be that the pioneer receiver is still getting only a 48k sample rate from the player via firewire even if you have a 96k disk playing.

[MrMcGoo]

Boa,

The information from thr Pioneer forum indicates 96kHz for 5.1 and 192 kHz for 2 channel music. The TI port allegedly supports copy protection that the indutry has approved for full bandwidth.

I will be inquiring further because I will only upgrade my 49 TX if all of the hype is true.

BTW, many DVD-As are mastered at 48 kHz. I can't tell the difference in most cases. The DTS Brazilian Bossa DVD-A has both 48 and 96 KHz cuts in the Meridian Lossless Packing version. I can't tell the diff, but I can hear a small difference between MLP and DTS 5.1 tracks.

Bill

PS-Further reading of the fine print on the Pioneer forum indicates that SACD is passed at full bandwidth, but copy protected DVD-A will require a future software upgrade. B

[prodj101]

my sony player can handle 96khz

[boa12]

ProDJ, sure, using the analog outputs it will. but so far as i've seen all dvd player makers don't allow for anything over 48k SR to be passed over their digital connections such as coax, optical, or firewire because of copywrite protection. its either a law, fear of law suit from the content producers, their in cahoots w/ the movie/record industry, or all of these.

iow, this is the new digital standard for high resolution material issue. that's why to get true high res sound, at least before, you have to connect the dvdp w/ analog connects.

what i'm trying to figure out is how these new firewire receivers are getting around the copywrite issue. maybe the new digital standard is here & its firewire. 1st i'm hearing of it.

like bill says, if sacd is full bandwidth over firewire now & dvd-audio is not, that's really going to help sacd beat up on dvd-audio i'd think.

[MrMcGoo]

Boa,

I suspect that you are probably right when opine that SACD will beat up on DVD-A, if your receiver can only decode SACD.

Who would buy a DVD-A when you would get a 10 db higher noise floor than a SACD. The increase in the noise floor was measured by Sound and Vision for the 49 TX. It is the difference between using digital and analog inputs.

Bill

[jdm56]

I believe (but will not bet the farm on it) that what the top Denon and Pioneer DVD-A players will output through their "hi-rez multichannel" digital outputs is determined by the content owner. I think that they will have the ultimate say as to sampling rate and word length, and also as to whether or not copying will be allowed, and at what resolution. At least, this seems to be the new paradigm that the backers of DVD-A are working towards.

[boa12]

saw this in an article from 4/02:

"Audio Rumor and Fact on Firewire - In January the DVD Forum released its guidelines for the

use of Firewire/iLink (IEEE 1394) with the DVD-Audio digital interface. The news release indicated

that no digital interface for SACD was planned, leading to the misunderstanding that it would be

hampered by being restricted to the present six-channel analog outputs rather than Firewire. Well of

course no plans for SACD were announced at the same time - this was the DVD Forum - which

wants nothing to do with SACD. Firewire is not dependent on the platform and will be used with

both formats eventually. Whats holding it up now is the continuing hassle over digital copy

protection systems, which is much more a concern of the DVD-A camp than the SACD proponents

due to copying protections built into the DSD/SACD approach. When the new digital interface

between nearly everythingelectronics becomes standard, advantages will include: dispensing with six

analog cables between the source and receiving equipment for surround, the possibility of better

D-A converters and especially analog stages in high-end hardware (vs. including those in players),

and bass and time management performed in the superior digital domain rather than in analog."

from what bill's saying, it looks like sacd is good to go for high res digital transmission whereas dvd-audio is still hung up on it. nother nice thing about sacd is it'll do 192khz in 6 channels whereas dvd-audio only goes this high on 2 channels. otoh, sounds like the "dvd forum" is anti-sacd, pro dvd-audio.

[PYRO]

I demo'ed a B&K AVR307 vs. a Denon AVR5303 on Klipsch RF-7's. The B&K was so much nicer in sound across the board. I am also in the market to purchase a new front end. I've went back and forth between receivers and separates. I have decided on separates. I am leaning towards the Rotel RSP-1066 and RMB-1095 for about $3500, through in a rotel tuner and I am looking at $4000. Although a found a Sunfire Theater Grand II and Cinema Series II amp for $4000 also.

Good Luck.

[MrMcGoo]

I believe JDM got it right when he said content owners are controlling copy protection on DVD-A.

It is my hope that SACDs ability to be decoded in the receiver will make their sales leave DVD-A in the dust. The content owners will probably respond to sales more than anything else.

Bill