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Chorus III Experiment


dtr20

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The forte III horn is a direct fit for the klf20/30. I bought these horns over a year ago. There was a small period of time when klipsch let people order forte III parts without a serial number. Can't remember how much it cost

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15 hours ago, dtr20 said:

We critically listened to the chorus II speakers tonight with the A55G drivers. We both preferred the the speaker with the forte III horn.

 

So you're sticking with the forte III / A55-g combo? I wonder if the adapter had anything to do with this? Also looking at the graph lines for both the forte III horn combos looks like its meant for 700hz and up possibly? If you decide to sell the A55-g's let me know thanks!

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2 hours ago, dtr20 said:

The forte III horn is a direct fit for the klf20/30. I bought these horns over a year ago. There was a small period of time when klipsch let people order forte III parts without a serial number. Can't remember how much it cost

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Thank you, just sent in an inquiry of availability and cost of the forte III horn. Will report back when & what I find.

 

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To elaborate on last nights testing.  We A+B both speakers, both had A55G drivers, but one was the stock horn with an adapter to accept the A55G driver and the other was the forte III horn with block spacers that I made to fit in the Chorus II midrange opening.  My wife is really good at hearing differences, so I always have her check these things out with me, plus I need someone to operate the A=B switch for me to listen.  We listened to 2 songs, both mellow songs by hard rock bands.  Can't remember the Three Days Grace song, and then Snuff by Slipknot.  The vocals were a lot more crisp and detailed with the forte III horn.  With the stock Chorus II horn, things sounded more echoey (if thats a word).  In the middle of Snuff, on the forete III horn, my wife was so surprised that she discovered there was another person doing backup vocals.  We have never noticed this before, we thought it was only Corey Taylor singing that part.  Once she heard that, she could then pick it out with the stock horn, but not as easily, she only noticed it because she was really looking for it.

 

I think I'm going to try to do a tournament competition with these horn/driver combinations and detail our findings. Last night was stock horn vs forte III horn with A55G drivers.  Next will be the same horns, but with stock drivers.  I will then put the 2 winners from each against each other and the 2 losers against each other to really rank them.  We will continue to use the same songs.

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Tonight we used the same 2 songs, "Never Too Late" by Three Days Grace and "Snuff" by Slipknot. We tested stock drivers with a stock horn compared to a forte III horn. We had similar results, forte III horn had more detail, she noticed a more distinct backup vocal in part of the Three Days Grace song compared to the stock horn.

 

I feel like a lot of the issue is with the stock horn is the fact that it's so big which I feel like adds resonance and extra vibrations. The best way I can describe the difference between the horns is like comparing woofers or rather sealed vs ported cabinets. A good sealed subwoofer will typically have good tight bass, and a ported sub will typically have more exaggerated bass. The forte III horn has tighter sound compared to the chorus II horn.

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The horns you are comparing are not necessarily comparable... the stock Chorus II horn is a K60X (600Hz) series horn and the Forte III is a K70X (700Hz) series... technically the comparable current replacement would be the lager K603M found in the Cornwall IV or the KPT310HF. If I remember correctly the horn you are trying to replace is a K602?

 

Between the A55G and smaller K703M horn all you are effectively doing by swapping out components is EQing the speaker to potentially suite your own taste? Why not just use an EQ? It would be easier?

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12 hours ago, CANT said:

Between the A55G and smaller K703M horn all you are effectively doing by swapping out components is EQing the speaker to potentially suite your own taste? Why not just use an EQ? It would be easier?

Because this is part of the fun.

 

I went with the mentality that the forte and chorus shared the same horns, then the forte II and the chorus II shared the same horns.  So naturally, the forte III and the chorus III would likely share the same horns.

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On 4/1/2020 at 11:07 AM, dtr20 said:

Because this is part of the fun.

 

I went with the mentality that the forte and chorus shared the same horns, then the forte II and the chorus II shared the same horns.  So naturally, the forte III and the chorus III would likely share the same horns.


Yeah but the FIII and the FII don’t use the same horn, driver and have dramatically different balancing networks... there is just a lot of assuming happening here... 

 

I mean I get the fun aspect. I love tearing sh!t apart and rebuilding it just to see how it works but I worry about what is being billed as equivalent or as an upgrade because those types of ideas seem to be spreading around recently with little vetting? The A55 itself is somehow billed all over the place as a generic upgrade to the driver of your choosing despite the fact that there is NO way that is realistic. There are numerous old threads that compare the K52 and K55 (of which the A55 is basically a clone)... and most, that I can recall, show the 55 down about 2-3dB and not realistically swappable without making adjustments to the network... but look at where we are?

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9 hours ago, CANT said:

 There are numerous old threads that compare the K52 and K55 (of which the A55 is basically a clone)... and most, that I can recall, show the 55 down about 2-3dB and not realistically swappable without making adjustments to the network... but look at where we are?

 

If you look at the Chorus II vs forte II crossovers they use the same mid horn and driver but the forte II mid is dialed back -10db compared to the Chorus II at -6db-- a 4db difference on speakers that are rated 99db & 101db sensitivity.

 

Now of course rooms, equipment matching and personal preference (among other things) play a big role but from what I have read and understand is that a lot of people prefer the "smoothness" of the forte II over the Chorus II, which I attribute to the mid horn settings, which is why, in my opinion, the A55-g is a perfect match specifically for the Chorus II and as I have said before not for the forte II.

 

If you look at the impedance and frequency response charts between the two drivers they are very close to the same, the 55's go lower by about 200hz the 52 variants go a little higher by about 400hz so as far as being drop in replacements other than a slight input sensitivity difference which seems to work in the case of the Chorus II and probably the KLF-30 I think they are fine, I've stated this many times over at least a couple of years and no one has chimed in with a reason I'm wrong here?? Bob Crites recommends them as replacements?

 

As far as the forte III horn goes I'm actually quite surprised by how much the horn makes a difference on the charts presented in this thread I do see a drop in the 600-700hz range and lower output than the stock horn, how much difference that makes to the ear I don't know but obviously the "good" part of the change must outweigh the "bad" otherwise it wouldn't be the preferred choice. Now having said that I personally like to make changes, live with them for awhile and then at some point switch back just to make sure I still appreciate the new set up because I've found "different" some times feels like better even when it is not.

 

 

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9 hours ago, CANT said:


Yeah but the FIII and the FII don’t use the same horn, driver and have dramatically different balancing networks... there is just a lot of assuming happening here... 

 

I mean I get the fun aspect. I love tearing sh!t apart and rebuilding it just to see how it works but I worry about what is being billed as equivalent or as an upgrade because those types of ideas seem to be spreading around recently with little vetting? The A55 itself is somehow billed all over the place as a generic upgrade to the driver of your choosing despite the fact that there is NO way that is realistic. There are numerous old threads that compare the K52 and K55 (of which the A55 is basically a clone)... and most, that I can recall, show the 55 down about 2-3dB and not realistically swappable without making adjustments to the network... but look at where we are?

 

Curios CANT, have you actually listened to an a55g driver in anything? I mean with your ears, not looking at numbers or graphs on a screen or on paper?

 

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9 hours ago, CANT said:


Yeah but the FIII and the FII don’t use the same horn, driver and have dramatically different balancing networks... there is just a lot of assuming happening here... 

 

I mean I get the fun aspect. I love tearing sh!t apart and rebuilding it just to see how it works but I worry about what is being billed as equivalent or as an upgrade because those types of ideas seem to be spreading around recently with little vetting? The A55 itself is somehow billed all over the place as a generic upgrade to the driver of your choosing despite the fact that there is NO way that is realistic. There are numerous old threads that compare the K52 and K55 (of which the A55 is basically a clone)... and most, that I can recall, show the 55 down about 2-3dB and not realistically swappable without making adjustments to the network... but look at where we are?

Lets hit your different points.  Yes, the forte II and forte III use different horns, just like the forte I and the forte II.  Just like the chorus I and the chorus II.But the chorus I and the forte I use the same horns and the forte II and the chorus II use the same horns.  So naturally the mindset would be that the chorus III and the forte III would use the same horns.  I understand the crossovers are different.  Someone mentioned earlier in this thread, i think page 1 or early page 2, that I can make changes with resistors (I think) on the crossovers to bump up the output volume of the A55G.  I may try this at some point, but I am not good at circuit board soldering, so I'll have to wait for this whole world self quarantine period to be over to have a buddy do stuff like that to my crossovers.

 

As far as the A55G midrange drivers goes?  I already had a set.  I wanted to play with them.  I have a pair of older khorns and belles which are drop in replacement drivers for them, as well as cornwall I verticals speakers that are mid project and super heresies that are also mid project.  So yes, these A55G can go into a number of speakers.  I've read that the A55G drivers were great drop-in replacements to the KLF20/30 speakers (i also have a pair of KLF30s).  Since the forte III midrange adapter has a threaded mount, identical to the KLF30 horn, I thought trying the A55G driver would be a natural progression for the experiment.  I emailed Bob Crites to make sure there wouldn't be a problem with the chorus II crossover with the A55G drivers.  He said it was fine to drop them right in without modifying them (from a damaging point of view).  

 

I am not a super technical person when it comes to this stuff.  I can't read response curves, etc.  I do, however, know what sounds good.  My favorite thing to do in this hobby is to A+B compare stuff., whether that is 2 different sets of speakers to see how they differ, or two almost identical speakers with a single change to see how they differ.  For example, i replaced one khorn midrange driver with the A55g driver and left the other stock.  At low volumes, I preferred the stock driver because the A55G was laid back compared to stock.  At high volumes, I greatly preferred the A55G because it was laid back and less fatiguing. 

 

As far as EQing, i just suck at it.    Every time I try to set an EQ to taste, I realize flat sounds a ton better.  Bottom line, this the Technical/Modifications section where people come to play and test.  There are 2 types of Klipsch people. 1, if it isn't stock, its not Klipsch.  2, I love Klipsch, but sometimes we can tweak, swap, etc to make a great product even better.  I am in the latter part usually and that is what this section of the forum is mostly dedicated to.

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2 hours ago, dtr20 said:

Lets hit your different points.  Yes, the forte II and forte III use different horns, just like the forte I and the forte II.  Just like the chorus I and the chorus II.But the chorus I and the forte I use the same horns and the forte II and the chorus II use the same horns. 

 

 

 

 

I made the same mistake myself some years back, this is an incorrect statement Forte uses a K701 mid horn Chorus uses a K601 mid horn they are not the same horn.

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4 hours ago, jjptkd said:

... make changes, live with them for awhile and then at some point switch back just to make sure I still appreciate the new set up because I've found "different" some times feels like better even when it is not.

 

An extremely good rationale.

 

3 hours ago, dtr20 said:

I love Klipsch, but sometimes we can tweak, swap, etc to make a great product even better. 

 

I agree with the caveat that it's better in the room with all the associated equipment for and to the particular individual's tastes.  Usually limited only to that situation.

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11 hours ago, dtr20 said:

Lets hit your different points.  Yes, the forte II and forte III use different horns, just like the forte I and the forte II.  Just like the chorus I and the chorus II.But the chorus I and the forte I use the same horns and the forte II and the chorus II use the same horns.  So naturally the mindset would be that the chorus III and the forte III would use the same horns.  I understand the crossovers are different.  Someone mentioned earlier in this thread, i think page 1 or early page 2, that I can make changes with resistors (I think) on the crossovers to bump up the output volume of the A55G.  I may try this at some point, but I am not good at circuit board soldering, so I'll have to wait for this whole world self quarantine period to be over to have a buddy do stuff like that to my crossovers.

 

As far as the A55G midrange drivers goes?  I already had a set.  I wanted to play with them.  I have a pair of older khorns and belles which are drop in replacement drivers for them, as well as cornwall I verticals speakers that are mid project and super heresies that are also mid project.  So yes, these A55G can go into a number of speakers.  I've read that the A55G drivers were great drop-in replacements to the KLF20/30 speakers (i also have a pair of KLF30s).  Since the forte III midrange adapter has a threaded mount, identical to the KLF30 horn, I thought trying the A55G driver would be a natural progression for the experiment.  I emailed Bob Crites to make sure there wouldn't be a problem with the chorus II crossover with the A55G drivers.  He said it was fine to drop them right in without modifying them (from a damaging point of view).  

 

I am not a super technical person when it comes to this stuff.  I can't read response curves, etc.  I do, however, know what sounds good.  My favorite thing to do in this hobby is to A+B compare stuff., whether that is 2 different sets of speakers to see how they differ, or two almost identical speakers with a single change to see how they differ.  For example, i replaced one khorn midrange driver with the A55g driver and left the other stock.  At low volumes, I preferred the stock driver because the A55G was laid back compared to stock.  At high volumes, I greatly preferred the A55G because it was laid back and less fatiguing. 

 

As far as EQing, i just suck at it.    Every time I try to set an EQ to taste, I realize flat sounds a ton better.  Bottom line, this the Technical/Modifications section where people come to play and test.  There are 2 types of Klipsch people. 1, if it isn't stock, its not Klipsch.  2, I love Klipsch, but sometimes we can tweak, swap, etc to make a great product even better.  I am in the latter part usually and that is what this section of the forum is mostly dedicated to.

I think the one thing that we can all agree on is how we're all salivating at the thought of buying some of those Forte III horn lenses... and how mad we are at dtr20 for not buying several pairs and selling us some.😉

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16 hours ago, jjptkd said:

 

If you look at the Chorus II vs forte II crossovers they use the same mid horn and driver but the forte II mid is dialed back -10db compared to the Chorus II at -6db-- a 4db difference on speakers that are rated 99db & 101db sensitivity.

 


That’s because the CII is balanced to the output of a 15” (high output) woofer and the FII is balanced to the output of a 12” woofer... in their respective cabinets?!?

 

Again, there is a whole lot of apples to pineapples going on here?!?

 

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