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Jeffrey D. Medwin

Thinking of doing a Dynaco / DYNA PAS Preamp

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06-29-2020  ........................................ Progress Photos

 

Slow but sure. 

 

Added ceramic Russian 12B4A noval sockets, and six terminals to each of the six triode tube sockets.  Stripped bare and layed-in the 10 AWG Mil Spec ground buss, and star grounded it near the RCA Phono Input jacks.    HAD to use 1/8th inch plastic cable clamps, to stabilize the buss bar.  Being 10 AWG for each channel, multi stranded, and silver plated, this should be a good sounding, wide-band  buss bar implementation. 

 

     155783305_005EDITED6-29-2020.thumb.jpg.64f55d38df9f8158891d4036bdb06935.jpg

 

                                                                                           Blue tape applied to get equal lengths.  

 

The gentle curves in the buss bar wire is to enhance the reproduction of simple sinusoidal music signals, occurring 62% of the time.  ( .. a joke !! ) 

 

1073863023_0086-29-20edited.thumb.jpg.a750954c6241acb1dc3226df07982570.jpg

 

                        

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

To put it in easily-understandable terms, it would be like someone saying " PWK was a shyster, and all he did was fool the public, to his advantage ".    I don't think that would go over too well, ...........sit too well, with many people who actually knew PWK

You really have trouble connecting dots,, and still more with deduction and induction. You should stay within your element--the thread you started about your build and focusing on your build. 

 

Your ability to analogize needs work too. Paul Klipsch would have flashed a Bullshit button on anyone who tried to claim a sonic difference between 5' cables and 4.77' cables (without regard to the color or creed of the person professing it). 

 

He would call double Bullshit on a 9-and -a-half foot power cord (sorry, 9.52) vs. 9 or 10'. He was a polymath, certified genius and the driving force behind measurements and standards in testing in audio. He was from a world of peer review. 

 

There is no doubt in my mind YOU can hear it, I also suspect you are in the 99.9th percentile on that.

 

Unfortunately discussions about race or religion are not allowed per the terms of service because you raise an interesting question, is what you are hearing because of prayer? What would it sound like if they had not prayed? Did they pray over the power cable and that is really what you are hearing, not the length?Alas, we will never know because that's a closed, off-limits discussion. 

 

15 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Just because YOU do not understand something, or can accept it, does not mean it is not true !! 

 

That is certainly true, so to be on the safe side I am changing all of my interconnects AND power cables. But I'm getting different numbers from you and Gary, and/or I don't understand the math.

 

What exact length should they be in the following approximate lengths:

 

.5 Meter

1M 

2M

3M

6M

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Travis 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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57 1/8th inches  and multiples, sometimes divisors, thereof is what Mr. Fulton always clearly told me. 

 

114 1/4 inches, or 9.52 feet, Travis, is two FMI lengths. 

 

I was associated as Mr. Fulton's Southern California REP, on a volunteer basis, from 1979 till 1984, when I moved to Kansas City, MO ( Board of Trade ).  Mr. Fulton and I  did a lovely Seminar and Demo back then, at Ralph C. Sutro Auditorium, on Wilshire Blvd.  Anyone here old enough to have attended ??

 

I have OFTEN thought about and KNOW this :  Mr. Fulton would never ever ever use a word like B.S.  

 

PWK was mis-informed, compared to RWF, regarding wire for audio, IMHO.  I cringe at what I get quoted from Klipsch fans, about what PWK advised, to use, for speaker wire in audio.  That actually is OK with me, because I do respect people as human beings, and try not to force my beliefs on someone who believes differently. 

 

Yes, I agree, PWK was brilliant, but certainly not omnipotent on the subject of audio, speakers, and wire !!

 

Siltech wire, from The Netherlands, over the last 37 years,  disproves PWK's wire advice.  Nothing available exists, sonically equal to that, to the best of my personal experience.  ' Ever heard it ???  Here is their web site to easily explore :

 

                                                                                    https://www.siltechcables.com/about-us/

 

No need to spend ALL that money on Siltech.  Detailed prior suggestions on this Forum for DIY speaker wire, a paralleled trio of surplus - priced  m22759/11, also disproves PWK's speaker lead advice.  Advantageously, almost anyone can afford it.

 

I wanted to be done discussing these things.  This is all I hope to say.    Yes Travis, absolutely, I will get back to the tube preamplifier build, and stay on course. 

 

I am just ( herein ) responding to your post's various comments above.  Peace. 

 

Jeff  

 

 

 

 

 

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On 6/29/2020 at 9:00 AM, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

Do you really think its possible that people who respect GOD, and try to act God-Like, will tell lies to market audio equipment Travis?? I don't.

 

My 2 cents would be to not go there.

 

One of the sleeziest brokers I've ever known about was pushing (yes "pushing") very high commissioned products.  If anyone ever had a doubt about it, he would pull out his bible and pray with them about it....guess what?  In all circumstances, it seems God agreed with him without fail,  that they should do this investment.

 

He has since been banned from the business (not for his praying but for his preying)

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1 minute ago, Coytee said:

 

My 2 cents would be to not go there.

 

One of the sleeziest brokers I've ever known about was pushing (yes "pushing") very high commissioned products.  If anyone ever had a doubt about it, he would pull out his bible and pray with them about it....guess what?  In all circumstances, it seems God agreed with him without fail,  that they should do this investment.

 

He has since been banned from the business (not for his praying but for his preying)

 

 

There are always devious people, and exceptions as you point out, but certainly,  many many are NOT at all like what you cite.  

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16 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

57 1/8th inches  and multiples, sometimes divisors, thereof is what Mr. Fulton always clearly told me. 

 

114 1/4 inches, or 9.52 feet, Travis, is two FMI lengths. 

 

I was associated as Mr. Fulton's Southern California REP, on a volunteer basis, from 1979 till 1984, when I moved to Kansas City, MO ( Board of Trade ).  Mr. Fulton and I  did a lovely Seminar and Demo back then, at Sutro Auditoium, on Wilshire Blvd.  Anyone here old enough to have attended ??

 

I have OFTEN thought about and KNOW this :  Mr. Fulton would never ever ever use a word like B.S.  

 

PWK was mis-informed, compared to RWF, regarding wire for audio, IMHO.  I cringe at what I get quoted from Klipsch fans, about what PWK advised, to use, for speaker wire in audio.  That actually is OK with me, because I do respect people as human beings, and try not to force my beliefs on someone who believes differently. 

 

Yes, I agree, PWK was brilliant, but certainly not omnipotent on the subject of audio, speakers, and wire !!

 

Siltech wire, from The Netherlands, over the last 37 years,  disproves PWK's wire advice.  Nothing available exists, sonically equal to that, to the best of my personal experience.  ' Ever heard it ???  Here is their web site to easily explore :

 

                                                                                    https://www.siltechcables.com/about-us/

 

No need to spend ALL that money on Siltech.  Detailed prior suggestions on this Forum for DIY speaker wire, a trio of surplus - priced  m22759/11, also disproves PWK's speaker lead advice.  Advantageously, almost anyone can afford it.

 

I wanted to be done discussing these things.  This is all I hope to say.    Yes Travis, absolutely, I will get back to the tube preamplifier build, and stay on course. 

 

I am just ( herein ) responding to your post's various comments above.  Peace. 

 

Jeff  

 

 

 

 

 

But yet you persist.

 

PWK didn't use the term "B.S." he had a button made that said "Bullshit" that he would flash to all of the snakeoil that persists in this hobby.

 

So we were at cable lengths (power and ICs), now we are over to the materials. Ignoring that for the moment, I'm trying to understand a simple concept here. 

 

@Dr. Gary has indicated that the Fulton Std. Length, based on the ICs he has, direct from Fulton, and a conversation with someone at the company is 57.2" is standard FMI length (I.e., not 57.125" which is the length you claim is the std. FMI length) . Is he wrong about that length? Did Fulton change the standard? Does it matter? He has real Fulton RCA IC's, not knock off or copies. You obviously trust his abilities, knowledge, expertise as you indicated you have him fix a piece of equipment. 

 

Yet, in response to a question by Maynard you responded that you have "used divisors of 57 1/8th from time to time, but NOT on a consistent basis.  ( 28 1/2, 14 1/4, 7 1/8th inches ). So is it reasonable to assume the FMI length is meaningless/inaudible under 57.125/57.2 inches?

 

Why didn't Fulton make power cables? Did he ever say anywhere that power cord length made a difference? Or did you assume that based on a power cord that came off of something he owned. 

 

I'm guessing that your speakers are the weak link (DR for bass, fundamental problem) and is probably preventing you from hearing what is really there, and causing you to hear what isn't.

 

Again, PWK was about peer review, standards, research and measurements in addition to just using your ears. He published his results.

 

You haven't disproven anything. You have this habit of referring to stuff you have posted in other threads like "prior suggestions" on this Forum . . . . My recollection of that thread was the consensus was you hear what you want to hear.  That's all. Your typical response to anything is "based on my [number of years] of building amps/preamps.

 

Nelson Pass did an article on cables, including Fulton Gold and he said  "All the cables tested were 10 feet in length." The point is he published his data, his methodology, the conditions, as well as what he heard (on Pass amps). https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil/

 

There is nothing on length in Pass' article, there is nothing about length of his cables making a difference. The composition is a different matter entirely.

 

My question stands, did Fulton choose the length because of some reason related to audio reproduction? Or was it marketing? Or do you know or are just assuming that 57.125/57.2" was significant to him in some way?  There is nothing wrong, underhanded, with coming up with something unique to help sell a product, like "we use the FMI std. length for our cable" so I don't know where you get that would unethical or underhanded. Nor is there anything wrong with doing things to increase your profit margin. 

 

What I have is you claiming there is significance to the length, and that you had vast improvement by replacing a power cord with an FMI std. length cord of 10.52" and there is apparently noting from Bob Fulton about why he chose that length, or that power cord length benefits from a length.

 

PWK wouldn't be flashing his BS button on Bob Fulton I suspect, I suspect Bob wouldn't make crazy claims to Mr. Klipsch, but PWK would be flashing a BS Button at anyone who claimed they could hear the difference between a 10' power cord and a 10.52' power cord. 

 

If people want a history of audio cables, what was published, where Bob Fulton fit in the mix, they can read this: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-short-history-of-high-end-cables/

 

Lastly, I would point out that all of your claims appear suspect to me because you are using the wrong brand of golf balls to float your horn lens. I think it is throwing off your what your are hearing by a wide margin.

 

Travis

 

 

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16 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

But yet you persist.

 

PWK didn't use the term "B.S." he had a button made that said "Bullshit" that he would flash to all of the snakeoil that persists in this hobby.

 

 

Yes, but you are assuming ( ***/u/me ) that RWF's lengths was snake oil, and your basic assumption is 100% wrong !! 

 

Quote

 

So we were at cable lengths (power and ICs), now we are over to the materials. Ignoring that for the moment, I'm trying to understand a simple concept here. 

 

@Dr. Gary has indicated that the Fulton Std. Length, based on the ICs he has, direct from Fulton, and a conversation with someone at the company is 57.2" is standard FMI length (I.e., not 57.125" which is the length you claim is the std. FMI length) . Is he wrong about that length? Did Fulton change the standard? Does it matter? He has real Fulton RCA IC's, not knock off or copies. You obviously trust his abilities, knowledge, expertise as you indicated you have him fix a piece of equipment. 

 

Yet, in response to a question by Maynard you responded that you have "used divisors of 57 1/8th from time to time, but NOT on a consistent basis.  ( 28 1/2, 14 1/4, 7 1/8th inches ). So is it reasonable to assume the FMI length is meaningless/inaudible under 57.125/57.2 inches?

 

No, it is not reasonable, it is your assumption. I have seen RWF's products with 1/2 a length inside for certain applications, and he and I have discussed using fractions, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th. 

 

Quote

 

Why didn't Fulton make power cables? Did he ever say anywhere that power cord length made a difference? Or did you assume that based on a power cord that came off of something he owned. 

 

 

Power cables were not a known audio product back then.    It was revolutionary enough in 1978, when I first met him at a seminar in Mission Bay Audio ( San Diego ) for him to introduce amp-to-speaker cables.  William Z. Johnson, founder of Audio Research,  used FMI speaker cables. 

 

Quote

 

I'm guessing that your speakers are the weak link (DR for bass, fundamental problem) and is probably preventing you from hearing what is really there, and causing you to hear what isn't.

 

The speakers that RWF made and used back then, 1980s, had some of the best low distortion bass response ever obtained from a single speaker system. Here is a patent :  eg https://patents.google.com/patent/US4569414A/en  He had a measured -2dB down point at 12 hZ. on certain Premiere models, later ones, with slot loaded double 12s, crossed over from 38 hZ., down, IF I recall properly.   High frequencies were specified to 80 kHZ, and they actually measured typically at 100-110 kHZ.  That will raise eyebrows. 12 hZ to 80 kHZ, +/- 2 dB. 

 

Quote

 

Again, PWK was about peer review, standards, research and measurements in addition to just using your ears. He published his results.

 

That is great. RWF was a small operation, and he didn't publish.  That does NOT mean he was lying, or that it wasn't so !!  

 

 

Quote

 

You haven't disproven anything. You have this habit of referring to stuff you have posted in other threads like "prior suggestions" on this Forum . . . . My recollection of that thread was the consensus was you hear what you want to hear.  That's all. Your typical response to anything is "based on my [number of years] of building amps/preamps.

 

 That is fine, I can only cite my actual experience, and I rely upon itYou don't have to rely upon it.  Fine with me !!  

 

 

Quote

 

Nelson Pass did an article on cables, including Fulton Gold and he said  "All the cables tested were 10 feet in length." The point is he published his data, his methodology, the conditions, as well as what he heard (on Pass amps). https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil/

 

So what, whats the big deal with Nelson.  Our two stage direct coupled TUBE amps generally  exceed in performance his solid state amps, on high efficiency speakers.  Tube amps I can make on my Kitchen Floor. 

 

Quote

 

There is nothing on length in Pass' article, there is nothing about length of his cables making a difference. The composition is a different matter entirely.

 

So what, maybe Nelson wasn't smart enough to CONSIDER and PROPERLY  length.   RWF was smart enough.

 

My question stands, did Fulton choose the length because of some reason related to audio reproduction? Or was it marketing? Or do you know or are just assuming that 57.125/57.2" was significant to him in some way? 

 

 

Years ago, RWF was called in by one of the local Universities in the Twin City ( Minnesota ) area, to solve a problem.   One of the University's Departments was testing with high frequency audio signals, and their resultant response, using baboons as the test subject.  They had MANY controlled tests, and these Lab animals, these baboons,  were rather valuable in their work and research project. 

 

The people at the University changed the signal being fed to the animals, increased it up to 60 kHZ. , and all the animals became confused and sick, and could not respond well.  This was a disaster to their study, and all their  prior work. They hired RWF, to find out what was going on.  

 

Robert carefully measured the signal coming out of the lab's amplifier, at 60 kHZ, and it was fine.  Next, he measured the same signal at the speaker/transducer, that created the acoustic sound.  It had SHIFTED in phase a significant amount, such that it was likely an UNnatural sound to the animals, and it was likely what was causing the Lab Animals to get sick and confused. 

 

Robert, during WW2, had significant training in the high frequency electronics area ( see his biography ), and he KNEW how to use test equipment at higher frequencies.  He went on to develop amp-to-speaker wire to FIX the problem at the University Research Lab, with the baboons.  A successful result ensued, the baboons all were able to be tested, with no sickness and disparity, going forward.

 

 

Quote

 

 

There is nothing wrong, underhanded, with coming up with something unique to help sell a product, like "we use the FMI std. length for our cable" so I don't know where you get that would unethical or underhanded. Nor is there anything wrong with doing things to increase your profit margin. 

 

What I have is you claiming there is significance to the length, and that you had vast improvement by replacing a power cord with an FMI std. length cord of 10.52" and there is apparently noting from Bob Fulton about why he chose that length, or that power cord length benefits from a length.

 

Nope to the above, you got that wrong again Travis. I NEVER said I heard any differences in RWF lengths, and only said that " an inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience" ( an RWF statement )  which I have proven, to myself, very OFTEN in my DIY amp builds. 

 

Frankly, I always thought I would have a HARD time, hearing the FMI length differences in my audio system, things that RWF was able to measure in his Lab.  Hear the difference between 1 meter and 57 1/8th inches? I don't think my hearing and audio system can do that !!!   So, I have NEVER, in 40+ years, felt the need to A-B that.  Knowing RWF as well as I did, and based upon his religious demeanor, who and what he was as a PERSON, there was no reason for me to ever doubt the man, and what he told me ( and others ). 

 

So Travis, I would just routinely apply the RWF multiples in my builds, without ever feeling a great need to test them, but always , in the back of my mind, WONDERING.  I assume this length optimization has something to do with " reflections ", and it would apply universally, to speakers or AC power cord, trying to transmit a clean 60 hZ, signal to gear.

 

Forget your words " vast improvement " !!  I never said that !!!  You certainly misunderstand me.

 

( I have "lost" the ending of your post, but will address it now  ) :

 

PWK and RWF, in the same room : There would be no button flashing !!  RWF was down to earth, and LIKELY a great technical conversation would ensue, at the highest level, wherein, RWF would OPEN PWKs eyes, and mind, and tell him what was measured, and the results.  PWK would dupe it, IF he had an open mind.  Those two guys would likely get it right !!   Recall, RWF was using Tektronix's 2 GIG scopes to study audio , in the mid 1980s !!!  He was then, likely, the only person living to do so Travis !!!  

 

Who cares what The Absolute Sound ( or Nelson Pass ) wrote about the History of Cables?  Not me !!    In modern times, RWF was the main force behind that subject.  I was there, 1978 - 1988,  LIVING IT, with him !!  

 

Now, I have some wonderful news to add to ( and finalize ) this conversation.   Background :   Upon RWF's death in 1988, Mr. Dennis Fraker became my new Audio Mentor.   He is VERY good, smart, honest, etc etc etc.   Dennis has at his home, consistently, the best sounding tube amps, that ANYONE in this entire world knows how to build.  His system is up to snuff.  In 2018, DF questioned me about RWF's 57 1/8th length multiple. he then went on, to A-B various wire lengths, unsolicited by me, on HIS system.

 

The WONDERFUL news to me, was the day he reported to me that 57 1/8th was indeed, the best length he heard on his revealing system !!   After 40 years, subjective verification, from Mentor Two, of Mentor One's lab work.  

 

Dennis also tested one vs two RWF multiples, and he has told me, in both cases, speaker leads and power cords, two multiples sounded BEST to him.  Isn't that interesting and wonderful. Dennis is a VERY experienced audio listener, and I know, from 30 + years of association, that his audio / listening judgement is Golden. 

 

About the golf balls, combined with the DUCK brand tape from Walmart, it makes a HUGE difference in " my " system, to it's betterment. I specially selected those Golf Balls Travis, from the Salvation Army Family Store, located just a few blocks from my home.  The main criteria for their selection, was their twenty five cent per ball cost.   If anyone can come up with a higher performing, and as cost effective isolation technique, please please......... tell me. 

 

I use golf balls under my Altec 802D / 811 horn, external speaker crossover, Blu Ray player, and KT88 SE DC amplifier now.  I'll let others A-B brands. 

 

OK now, Travis, enough of this.

 

Jeff Medwin                                  Have fun, I do.

 

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15 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

Why do you even try Travis?


Ahhh - he’s a lawyer - - ?

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20 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

I assume this length optimization has something to do with " reflections ", and it would apply universally, to speakers or AC power cord, trying to transmit a clean 60 hZ, signal to gear.

 

Even if reflections were a significant factor, which seems rather unlikely because of the very low frequencies involved in audio signals, it would be a very frequency-dependent phenomenon.  It is inconceivable that there would be a universal "optimum length," the same for audio signal wires and for mains cables.  

 

And all of this wire-length saga was based on the behaviour of distressed and confused baboons??????  

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31 minutes ago, Backfire said:

And all of this wire-length saga was based on the behaviour of distressed and confused baboons?????? 

There were caged animals involved also.

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1 hour ago, Backfire said:

And all of this wire-length saga was based on the behaviour of distressed and confused baboons??????  

 

Aiming for the target audience?😲

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2 hours ago, Backfire said:

 

Even if reflections were a significant factor, which seems rather unlikely because of the very low frequencies involved in audio signals, it would be a very frequency-dependent phenomenon.  It is inconceivable that there would be a universal "optimum length," the same for audio signal wires and for mains cables.  

 

And all of this wire-length saga was based on the behaviour of distressed and confused baboons??????  

 

 

LOL, " It seems very unlikely because of the very low frequencies involved in audio signals "  SEE the problem, the faulty mindset of a conventional EE here ????

 

You and I have have many similarities to baboons, VS, say, a fish. 

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Here is a email sent to me within the last hour or so, and just read by me, of a person I assist doing wiring mods inside his audio amp :

 

 

profile_mask2.png
 
9:23 AM (1 hour ago)
 
 
cleardot.gif
cleardot.gif
to me
 
Morning Jeffrey, I completed the wiring on 6b4g amp yesterday & listened after about a 2 hour warm up. Not sure where to start but, all I can say is, Wow!
This implementation has given me a toe tapping experience that I had never had with amp b4.
Made me want to dance.
Upon further listening there is definitely an ease about the presentation also previously missing.
Recordings that I skimmed over in the past because of very congested passages are now defined with excellent instrument separation & detail. I actually get a feeling the amp is sourcing current on demanding peaks much better now.
This is a quantifiable change in my opinion and very pleased with results. On to some more breaking time & listening....
 
 
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
I rest my case.  The guy writing above is a musician, uses some Corner Horns, and has used this 6B4G amp about four years. You close-minded cats are all missing the BOAT, on the use of wire in audio, big TIME !!!   I TRY to me nice about this.   Re-read what he just said, a second time. Let it sink in.   Bless you all !!!
 
Jeff 
cleardot.gif

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1 hour ago, CECAA850 said:

There were caged animals involved also.

 

 

Gee, my Mentor and friend Dennis, was not a caged animal when he did his 2018 listening tests on his State of the Art audio system in Montana, Carl.

 

Jeff 

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5 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

Gee, my Mentor and friend Dennis, was not a caged animal when he did his 2018 listening tests on his State of the Art audio system in Montana, Carl.

 

Jeff 

I never said or implied he was.

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1 minute ago, CECAA850 said:

I never said or implied he was.

Correct, V.G. 

 

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

LOL, " It seems very unlikely because of the very low frequencies involved in audio signals "  SEE the problem, the faulty mindset of a conventional EE here ????

What is your evidence for the alleged involvement of high-frequency information in the audio signal?   Up to what frequency?

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