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How to play DSD or DSF files?! Noob question


MeloManiac

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What codec are you using for Bluetooth?  Last I checked (some time ago) they're all lossy, so you're not getting your "dsd's worth", I'm thinking...

 

Plus, I think dsd64 comes in under 24-bit 96kHz PCM in terms of everything that counts.

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34 minutes ago, glens said:

What codec are you using for Bluetooth?  Last I checked (some time ago) they're all lossy, so you're not getting your "dsd's worth", I'm thinking...

 

Plus, I think dsd64 comes in under 24-bit 96kHz PCM in terms of everything that counts.

 

You may be right, but at least I now possess what I paid for. I will likely invest in a DAC later on, so then I'll be able to play those dsd files. (The Shiit Ragnarok 2 is very high on my list).

 

 

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On 3/7/2020 at 7:53 AM, DizRotus said:

I had a similar experience.  I downloaded a DSD file on accident—as Millennials say—and it would not play on any of three Pono players, despite the purported capacity to play DSD files.  I contacted the vendor and was permitted to download the intended FLAC file.  All was then good.

 

Personally, I have no experience with DSD, and do not know why the format exists.  By saying that, I’m not implying that it doesn’t have advantages, I’m just saying I don’t know what they are.  I welcome an education.

 

Since Pono support has vanished, and because I’m perfectly happy playing FLAC files in balanced mode into my class D chip amps, I’ve got no plans to implement DSD, DSF, or WTF files.

 

 

Yeah, those WTF files are hard to deal with!

 

On 3/7/2020 at 10:58 AM, Chris A said:

I think foobar2000 will handle DSD files if you add the SACD decoder plugin.  I've never had the ability to rip SACDs from my PS3s and Oppo BDP103 since the manufacturers of both units prevented this ability in their firmware updates (which were then made non-reversible), but I do have the SACD decoder loaded in foobar2000 if I have the same "accident" that you had. I haven't had that accident yet.

 

SACDs (of which I own about 100 of these discs, including and most importantly multichannel SACDs) have a bit higher fidelity than Redbook 44.1/16 bit CDs, and the multichannel SACDs that I own are superb on the 5.1 setup.

 

DSD is a delta-sigma modulation format instead of the regular pulse-code modulated (PCM) of all other discs, and has been around for as long as PCM (early 1980s for audio via the Direct Stream Digital [DSD] company).  It was invented to be an archiving format, not a released disc format.  As such, has really no way to edit the tracks without first converting the tracks to PCM first, doing the edits, then converting back to DSD format (i.e., you've destroyed the reason for having DSD when the tracks are edited).  I have some SACDs that respected the DSD format and the recording/mixing/mastering chain respected that "no editing" edict of DSD, and I have to say that these discs (especially the multichannel versions) are perhaps the best that I own--because the bass line EQ hasn't been tampered with.  There are three Yellowjackets multichannel SACDs which are like listening to the original downmix tracks, and they're absolutely superb--reference quality sound--like being there.

 

Chris

 

Foobar2000 with the SACD plugin is exactly how I played my DSF files for years.   I'm using ROON which isn't as perfect as I'd like but it is way beyond anything else I've used.  If you don't have a player that can play DSD, Roon will convert to PCM.  Roon will also combine multichannel files to 2 channels if you need.  

 

Playing DSD files takes more processing power... If your server (wherever it is getting decoded) isn't up to the task you might actually hear a degradation in sound quality.  Just my experience... there are a lot of variables.  The DSD vs FLAC versions I have are not an apples to apples comparison.  

 

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On 3/7/2020 at 7:03 PM, Marvel said:

What has disappeared is the Sonoma DSD Audio workstation, which could record and edit multitrack DSD audio.

I later read that Sonoma actually converts to PCM to edit (internally), and then converts back to DSD before saving--and not telling its users what it was doing.  Perhaps this is why the company no longer exists...?  I know that it isn't really possible to perform EQ, cross fades, etc. without somewhere converting to PCM first.  You can see this when you think about how delta-sigma encodes the music.

 

The DSD format itself has never been terribly popular among released albums.  Like I inferred above, the real reason why it was preferred among audio enthusiasts (like us) was that it initially wasn't editable if it stayed in the delta-sigma domain only (i.e., "purist DSD"...), so the released tracks sounded just like the downmix tracks.  This not only preserves bass below 100 Hz (which is quite sensitive to any changes/EQ in terms of human hearing acuity), but it also preserves whatever phase fidelity of the original tracks was remaining after mixing.  Since there apparently are Pro Tools plug-ins that can convert to PCM and back to DSD again, the need for the Sonoma name (and dramatically increased prices) just isn't there. 

 

Chris

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I agree. I hadn't realized initially, that it was a Sony product, but recording/releasing 24bit/192kHz pretty much kills off the need for it, especially if you are needing to edit the files.

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I'm pretty happy with Redbook quality and up, and I think the quality of the mastering is much more important than the format of the music file.  However, I think it's good to know your DAC and what it does with incoming streams, if you can find any data on it (some manufacturers keep it a secret.)  My DAC converts everything to DSD internally so I figure I might as well try and send it a DSF file to keep things simple and keep the processing power down on the DAC.  I do this with Roon.  But I'm perfectly happy with a well-mastered PCM file too.

 

I think it's also important to know the provenance of the DSF file.  Companies that care about this will be very upfront about how the file was created - venue, microphones, cables, recording format, mixing etc...  I agree with the above comments that most DSF files have been converted to PCM (or were created from a PCM source) which defeats some of the purpose.  I'm seeing a lot of DSF files that were processed in "DXD" format which is basically very-hi-res-PCM.  The marketing says this doesn't affect quality but I don't know enough about it.

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6 minutes ago, pbphoto said:

I'm pretty happy with Redbook quality and up, and I think the quality of the mastering is much more important than the format of the music file.  However, I think it's good to know your DAC and what it does with incoming streams, if you can find any data on it (some manufacturers keep it a secret.)  My DAC converts everything to DSD internally so I figure I might as well try and send it a DSF file to keep things simple and keep the processing power down on the DAC.  I do this with Roon.  But I'm perfectly happy with a well-mastered PCM file too.

 

I think it's also important to know the provenance of the DSF file.  Companies that care about this will be very upfront about how the file was created - venue, microphones, cables, recording format, mixing etc...  I agree with the above comments that most DSF files have been converted to PCM (or were created from a PCM source) which defeats some of the purpose.  I'm seeing a lot of DSF files that were processed in "DXD" format which is basically very-hi-res-PCM.  The marketing says this doesn't affect quality but I don't know enough about it.

 

This is exactly why nativedsd.com caught my attention. This is from their website: "The word "Native" in NativeDSD Music means offering music files that are sourced as early in the production process as possible. The key word is Native. Unlike the majority of download service sites today, unless otherwise indicated, NativeDSD offers only DSD Edit Masters, sourced from DSD session recordings, and not ripped files from optical media. The much abused term “Studio Masters” has little relevance when the source of a sites download file is from the same optical media available to the consumer.

To put this into perspective, this is most important for recordings that contain the fragile low level spatial and instrument detail content of acoustic recorded music. That is music recorded in an acoustic space at the highest technical level available, with the intent of transporting the music performance to the listeners’ room at the highest degree possible."

(https://www.nativedsd.com/information/about-dsd)

 

 

 

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On 3/7/2020 at 11:58 AM, Chris A said:

...I've never had the ability to rip SACDs from my PS3s and Oppo BDP103 since the manufacturers of both units prevented this ability in their firmware updates (which were then made non-reversible),

 

...I have some SACDs that respected the DSD format and the recording/mixing/mastering chain respected that "no editing" edict of DSD, and I have to say that these discs (especially the multichannel versions) are perhaps the best that I own--because the bass line EQ hasn't been tampered with.  There are three Yellowjackets multichannel SACDs which are like listening to the original downmix tracks, and they're absolutely superb--reference quality sound--like being there.

 

Chris

I've been ripping my MCH SACDs to a NAS share with an Oppo 103D for the last couple months.  I'll check my firmware version on the off chance that I can help Chris.  Totally agree about the one Yellowjackets SACD I own - Altered State - now I'll have to get the other 2!

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Many thanks to Mark (Delicious2) for providing the info needed to rip my SACDs to DSF files. This has been a sore point on buying SACDs in the past, knowing that I couldn't back them up to ripped files on HD (and they're enormous files if extracting the multichannel version off hybrid multichannel SACDs: the Yellowjackets Time Squared SACD takes over 7GB on HD.  That's big.)  Now that I've found a way to back them up, I'll be more likely to acquire the SACD versions instead of the PCM versions. 

 

I can also verify that foobar2000 easily plays them.

 

I recently upgraded my AVP to an Emotiva XMC-1 and I finally turned on Dirac yesterday.  This is a good piece of software--it not only flattens SPL response, but also does FIR filtering to flatten the phase (impulse) response of the setup within the AVP.  And it does it in a few minutes using the supplied Emotiva calibrated microphone.  (Anyone here passing through the DFW area has an invite to drop in for a listen to the Jubs, K-402-MEH surround AMT-1/Belles, and stereo TH subs  with linear phase response.) 

 

Chris

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On 3/9/2020 at 6:03 AM, ILI said:

 

You may be right, but at least I now possess what I paid for. I will likely invest in a DAC later on, so then I'll be able to play those dsd files. (The Shiit Ragnarok 2 is very high on my list).

 

 

 

You definitely have to ditch bluetooth and go with a physical connection to get the best possible quality signal to the DAC. 

 

Also, even though the Schiit Ragnarok 2 is an excellent unit, it has nothing to do with DSD. Jason Stoddard wants nothing to do with DSD, nor will he ever implement DSD decoding in any of his units. Same goes for MQA for that matter. 

 

I have a couple dozen DSD albums and they sound perfectly fine going through my Bifrost 2. Yes, they're converted by the time they hit the DAC, but that's fine by me. They still sound great and the music on them is excellent.  

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On 3/9/2020 at 3:03 AM, ILI said:

 

You may be right, but at least I now possess what I paid for. I will likely invest in a DAC later on, so then I'll be able to play those dsd files. (The Shiit Ragnarok 2 is very high on my list).

 

 

Check out Amir's dac reviews over at Audio Science Review, you'll be surprised at how good of a DAC you can get for not too much money. My Topping D30, laptop with usb cable, and foobar 2000 does good with high res files. 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?forums/audio-dacs-streamers-servers-players-adcs.8/

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Amir has certainly blown the lid off audiophile magazine reviews, although I've mentioned elsewhere that he isn't necessarily the world's best at interpreting the measurements. 

 

But just a little effort on the part of the reader to understand the limits of human hearing and of typical background noise levels in rooms will help immensely with interpreting what he's measured.  For instance, there isn't a listening room that I've been in that had a lower noise floor than 20-30 dBA (excerpt perhaps inside the anechoic chamber in Hope--which was a terrible test of one's equilibrium and listening to one's own heart beating).  That means that if you set an upper limit of SPL in a listening room of, say 110 dB--it means that 90 dBSPL is about all you can get, and when converted to dBA or dBC--it means that 80-85 dB is about all the dynamic range that you are ever going to hear--even with headphones.  I suspect that the human hearing system is capable of detecting pretty small decay steps (as evidenced by the difference in sound of a 44.1 kHz/16 bit track and a 96 kHz/24 bit track).  It's the much smaller step size of the decays that are apparently audible (I believe that @DizRotus can attest to this difference in listening, also).  But this is the small quanta of step size that we're hearing, not the full dynamic range associated with 16 bits vs. 24 bits of dynamic range, etc.

 

Additionally, Amir reports jitter levels and harmonic distortion levels that are way smaller than what anyone can detect: we are pretty much limited to -50 to -70 dB (if that, referenced the fundamental) for harmonic distortion audibility, and only if that HD is higher order than 3rd or 4th order. Audible jitter is measured at the 20-50 ns level, not picoseconds.

 

Other measurements are like this: first you must realize what is audible, then apply your own information filter before reading what he's written, looking mainly at his plotted data.

 

The loudspeaker measurements are another story, however.  He's got a $100K (USD) rig for those measurements.  When he actually learns how to interpret the data that he's creating, I think that a lot of loudspeaker manufacturers are going to be pretty red-faced by the time it's all said and done.

 

Chris

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On 3/10/2020 at 1:51 PM, Chris A said:

Many thanks to Mark (Delicious2) for providing the info needed to rip my SACDs to DSF files...Now that I've found a way to back them up, I'll be more likely to acquire the SACD versions instead of the PCM versions. I can also verify that foobar2000 easily plays them.

I've been ripping my SACDs during my waking hours using the freeware ISO2DSD Sonore ripping application.  The 50+ SACDs (mostly multichannel) that I've ripped so far have taken up nearly half the 1 TB external USB drive that I use for my FLAC library, including demastered FLACs. 

 

So 1700 CDs ripped to FLAC take up about the same room as 50 multichannel SACDs... Good thing hard drive space is so cheap nowadays.  A 2 TB disc is only about $15 more than a $40 1 TB drive.  Nice to have Amazon around for times like these... 💸

 

This is a good time to take up projects like this. 🔉  🔉  🔉  I don't have to worry about having to go somewhere to fulfill a honey-do so it's easy to start and finish the projects recently.  I suppose that I'll be finishing the SACDs I own today or tomorrow (I own about 70 80 93 142 of them, which is down from the 100 that I estimated above).  Most of them are classical SACDs, but the few rock/pop/jazz/world etc. discs are excellent, too.  I just can't believe how natural sounding these discs are--especially when playing them one after another without having to get up and change out discs using my disc player to play them back like foobar is doing now.

 

giphy.webp

 

Chris

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I found a much more comprehensive list of DSD playback software at this link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rHcXP7PExksxZfkif3Rv2CT1Y_ESpNSv2b0nkKlBySk/edit#gid=1964212797

 

Look at the bottom menu across the very bottom of the window, then select "DSD Playback Software".  What you will see looks like a spreadsheet with a lot of information about the different software apps, operating systems, types of DSD files they can handle, prices, links, and comments.

 

Chris

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  • 2 weeks later...

...Sort of a report back on my Oppo BDP-103--enabled ripping of my 93 SACDs (and thanks again, Mark/Delicious2 for the links and encouragement to try it again after years have passed without success in enabling the ripping process using the Oppo).

 

It took me perhaps 4-5 days to rip all 93 SACDs that I own (and still own--I don't sell the original discs) and the process was simple.  I started up the Oppo player at the beginning of the day with the thumb drive in the USB slot with the magic enabling file on it, wait for the disc tray to open, then start ripping SACDs one at a time.  Put a disc in the player and then launched the Sonore ISO2DSD application on the PC, then punch "execute", then stand back and wait the 20-30 minutes until it's over, then repeat with the next SACD. 

 

My wife and I have been listening to these recordings more or less continuously since last week, something I never did before because it's laborious to have to change discs every 40-110 minutes and I soon tire of the process.  Now they're on the external HD (I had to upgrade to a 2 TB model over the 1 TB HD that I had for a few years--because the ripped DSD files are so large--about 7 GB per disc). 

 

I found that I had to use another shareware application (Tag&Rename) to update the metadata for each DSD album.  If I continue using this application after 30 days of use, I'll spring for the shareware fee (about $30) to keep it going.  The Tag&Rename application works well with all tracks, and isn't encumbered with malware, etc., like other applications online.

 

I was so impressed by all this (and started listening to the SACDs for the second and third time around off external HD for a change) that decided to complete the ripping of my remaining DVD-As and multichannel DTS discs (about 10 of these that I hadn't ripped until now, joining the dozen or so other multichannel DVD-As and DTS albums that I had ripped years ago.  I found a prior version of DVD Audio Extractor (V. 7.6.0) that works on Windows 7, and rips FLAC files directly from the ISO images on the DVD-As, DVD-Vs, and DTS discs.  Now I have a 100+ disc multichannel music collection that I now play pretty much continuously.  

 

Now I'm looking at Blu-Ray external disc drives from Amazon in order to rip my Blu-Ray music collection.  I think this will enlarge my multichannel collection to 200-250 albums, and significantly increase my enjoyment of these albums, too. 

 

Chris

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