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How to play DSD or DSF files?! Noob question


MeloManiac

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On 3/26/2020 at 2:24 PM, Chris A said:

...Now I'm looking at Blu-Ray external disc drives from Amazon in order to rip my Blu-Ray music collection.  I think this will enlarge my multichannel collection to 200-250 albums, and significantly increase my enjoyment of these albums, too. 

 

Chris

Chris, thanks for that Tag&Rename info.  I'll be investigating that.

If like me you're also interested in ripping UHD Blurays I found lots of helpful info on the MakeMKV forum including a guy named Alex who set me up with a drive and case with UHD compatible firmware.  I got:

5.25” Bare Drive ASUS BW-16D1HT with Libre Drive mod

and

-OWC Mercury Pro USB 3.0 enclosure for full sized drive.

This setup works on my Win10 usb 3.0 laptop and older Vista usb 2.0 desktop with MakeMKV and RedFox AnyDVD.

 

 

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I ordered a garden variety Blu-Ray external drive from Amazon a couple of days ago, and it should be here within a month (Amazon is experiencing delays in non-essential items presently as its logistics system ramps up).  I don't use 4K capabilities myself, so my Blu-Ray music ripping needs are very tractable.

 

I'm still enjoying this ability to instantly play all my albums (non-Blu-Ray presently).  It's a lot more convenient than plopping discs in trays, etc.

 

Chris

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Yes, it's great to have immediate browse-ability of most of my collection. (I still have some bluray-audio disks to rip.)  I'm getting addicted to the presentation/GUI of Tidal in Roon but only for 2 channel (the Oppo 203 can't be a multichannel Roon endpoint).  

 

Do tell though Chris, I saw you post about software player options, but, how are you getting those new ripped  DSD/DSF files to your Emotiva?  Just playing them on the Oppo 103 which ripped them with your 2TB usb drive connected?

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37 minutes ago, Delicious2 said:

Do tell though Chris, I saw you post about software player options, but, how are you getting those new ripped  DSD/DSF files to your Emotiva?  Just playing them on the Oppo 103 which ripped them with your 2TB usb drive connected?

From the external HD via foobar2000 in native DSD format using HDMI from my computer to the Emotiva XMC-1 AVP.

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Interesting,   I may need to check out the foobar2000 interface for myself.  Have you tried them directly on the Oppo?  If the Emotiva has analog inputs you could also play around with which DAC sounds better (although those differences may be swamped/moot by the DSP you're doing)  Any noise penalty for having a computer directly hooked to the system?

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51 minutes ago, Delicious2 said:

Have you tried them [...I assume you're talking about the DSD files...] directly on the Oppo?

Yes, as SACDs. I did use the external HDMI input on the Oppo when I was having trouble with the HDMI connection from the computer (which turned out to be a HDMI cable issue of the weirdest sort--which also caused me to acquire the Emotiva along the way...jeesh). It worked (external HDMI inputs to the Oppo), but it really was a kluge to have to turn on the Oppo in order to route digital files to the AVP.

 

53 minutes ago, Delicious2 said:

If the Emotiva has analog inputs you could also play around with which DAC sounds better (although those differences may be swamped/moot by the DSP you're doing)

 

The reason why I recently sprang for the NOS XMC-1 is due to the DAC performance, which bested the other AVPs (and AVRs):

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-emotiva-xmc-1-gen-2-pre-pro.9225/

 

I don't hear differences in DACs to the point of paying extra money for one.  I'm listening in multichannel mode whenever I can, so a two-channel DAC is like extra milk glands on a boar...for my use.  I don't have a use for one.  I need a multichannel DAC (if I were to try to go that way--which I don't see any reason for, since the AVP is the central electronics element in a multichannel setup--it needs to have the best performance so as to preclude external DACs. 

 

49 minutes ago, Delicious2 said:

Any noise penalty for having a computer directly hooked to the system?

I assume that you're talking about analog connections.  HDMI is digital, and I hear no noise through digital-only connections, unless there's something like a noisy USB connection.

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On 3/29/2020 at 12:49 PM, Chris A said:

Yes, as SACDs. I did use the external HDMI input on the Oppo when I was having trouble with the HDMI connection from the computer (which turned out to be a HDMI cable issue of the weirdest sort--which also caused me to acquire the Emotiva along the way...jeesh). It worked (external HDMI inputs to the Oppo), but it really was a kluge to have to turn on the Oppo in order to route digital files to the AVP

Actually,  I meant the Oppo directly playing the ripped DSD/DSF files from a usb drive connected to it or over a network share/ethernet not HDMI in, but, after some experimentation that might not be a very attractive way given it seems to convert DSD to PCM:

 

Oppo 103D playing Yellowjackets directly over network DSD to PCM.jpg

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On 3/29/2020 at 12:49 PM, Chris A said:

The reason why I recently sprang for the NOS XMC-1 is due to the DAC performance, which bested the other AVPs (and AVRs):

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-emotiva-xmc-1-gen-2-pre-pro.9225/

 

Confused here.  I didn't read through all 11 pages of that thread but the review conclusion makes clear:

"Even without that problem, we still can't match performance of a $99 desktop DAC even though we paid $2,500. Yes, we got more channels than 2 and have room EQ but still, I want my good performance damn it!"

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9 hours ago, Delicious2 said:

Confused here.

No confusion for me.  What is the threshold of audibility of the types of DAC performance measures that he presents? 

 

When you realize that the reviewer never really talks about those subjects (and is really the Achilles heel of all his reviews), then you can begin to look at the data itself and decide for yourself if it's "good enough".   I've stated this observation on the forum before.  His data is good, but he never says "good enough" and moves on to more important issues.  This is a problem.

 

I have no problems with the performance of the DACs in the XMC-1 being much more than "good enough".  Can I hear any differences between the current AVP that I own and the one it replaced (in terms of DAC performance)?  I'm not sure.  And that's "good enough" by definition.  If I were to start asking questions about other parts of someone's setup, particularly the room acoustics and loudspeaker performance in-room, I think that these measures will show much, much greater audibility and lower performance thresholds.  I could go on with examples of this, but I think you know what I'm saying.  DACs used to be an issue in the 1980s through perhaps 10-20 years ago.  Spending time on them now is a waste of my time as long at the SINAD is below -100 dB and DAC clock jitter performance is better than 1 ns (in fact, these thresholds are probably overspecified). It's like worrying about cables and interconnects.  These are largely a waste of time and money if they're simply "good enough".  Get out your calibrated microphone and REW (or similar measurement application) and start looking at the end-to-end performance of the system.  It won't take you a nanosecond to figure out that DAC performance is literally "in the weeds".  I worry about other stuff that actually matters to what I'm hearing.

 

I find that it is the failing of hi-fi enthusiasts without much experience to not ask these type of questions and to pour money into electronics, etc. without first asking the question, "can I hear that difference?"  I can't tell you in how many instances where I see all their money spent on electronics and a pittance on loudspeakers and room acoustics, then the same individual tries to shift the subject away from the obvious "elephant in the room".

 

Chris

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8 hours ago, Delicious2 said:

Actually,  I meant the Oppo directly playing the ripped DSD/DSF files from a usb drive connected to it or over a network share/ethernet not HDMI in

Why would this improve anything? 

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9 hours ago, Chris A said:

No confusion for me.  What is the threshold of audibility of the types of DAC performance measures that he presents? 

 

When you realize that the reviewer never really talks about those subjects (and is really the Achilles heel of all his reviews), then you can begin to look at the data itself and decide for yourself if it's "good enough".   I've stated this observation on the forum before.  His data is good, but he never says "good enough" and moves on to more important issues.  This is a problem.

 

I have no problems with the performance of the DACs in the XMC-1 being much more than "good enough".  Can I hear any differences between the current AVP that I own and the one it replaced (in terms of DAC performance)?  I'm not sure.  And that's "good enough" by definition.  If I were to start asking questions about other parts of someone's setup, particularly the room acoustics and loudspeaker performance in-room, I think that these measures will show much, much greater audibility and lower performance thresholds.  I could go on with examples of this, but I think you know what I'm saying.  DACs used to be an issue in the 1980s through perhaps 10-20 years ago.  Spending time on them now is a waste of my time as long at the SINAD is below -100 dB and DAC clock jitter performance is better than 1 ns (in fact, these thresholds are probably overspecified). It's like worrying about cables and interconnects.  These are largely a waste of time and money if they're simply "good enough".  Get out your calibrated microphone and REW (or similar measurement application) and start looking at the end-to-end performance of the system.  It won't take you a nanosecond to figure out that DAC performance is literally "in the weeds".  I worry about other stuff that actually matters to what I'm hearing.

 

I find that it is the failing of hi-fi enthusiasts without much experience to not ask these type of questions and to pour money into electronics, etc. without first asking the question, "can I hear that difference?"  I can't tell you in how many instances where I see all their money spent on electronics and a pittance on loudspeakers and room acoustics, then the same individual tries to shift the subject away from the obvious "elephant in the room".

 

Chris

My confusion stemmed from thinking you were referencing his review as an illustration of the superior performance of the XMC-1's dacs.  Now I understand your greater context.  Thank-you and well put.  Actually, as I've stated before, following you over the past year or so has awakened me to the "macro" issues in home audio and what is "in the weeds".

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19 hours ago, Chris A said:

Why would this improve anything? 

It might not, since I've found that the Oppo 103D is converting the DSD/DSF to PCM.  Then again it might since it's a simpler way of playing the files - no computer software involved.  For me who has become aware of noise in my system even when a computer is working on the same household power circuit (not connected to the audio system directly analog or digital) this point seems important currently (no pun intended).

Maybe I'll find software playback superior if nothing else for the GUI and cataloging/tagging features and this noise issue to be "in the weeds".  :0)

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Yesterday, I ripped the audio from this BD disc:

 

R-5226400-1388084261-4885.jpeg.jpg

 

This is the first of the five BDs that Bonamassa put out in 2013 as artifacts of his UK tour that year (I've collected all five BDs).  The first concert was apparently from the Borderline (a club in the London area, apparently).  I've never been able to listen to the entire disc due to the stridency of the soundtrack.  Yesterday, I found out why that is.  Here is the demastering EQ curve that I used on most of the tracks to rebalance the sound:

 

824821259_BonamassaBorderlinedemasteringcurve.JPG.8ea542e9e893c7d9c9f010e193148b54.JPG

 

The music tracks are much more listenable now.  If you look at that big bump that's been compensated at 3 kHz, it will tell you why the sound track sounds so strident.  That boost sits right on top of the most audible acoustic band that humans can hear, and is associated with the resonant frequency of the eardrum/ear canal.  Why someone would boost those frequencies has always been a mystery to me.  I immediately want to turn the tracks off when this is done.

 

The little 775 Hz notch in the response is there to control some sort of persistent resonance that shows up in the cumulative spectrum plot.  I assume it's got something to do with microphone feedback, perhaps a microphone at 8.75 inches from a guitar amplifier bin to reinforce the electric guitar's contributions on-stage.

 

Additionally, and quite unexpectedly, the bass line and kick drum response was heavily rolled off below 50 Hz, and boosted above that frequency.  When the bass was restored (see the Missing Octave thread for the natural response of both a bass guitar/double bass and a kick drum), the sound was much more "realistic" sounding, and much more inviting to listen to some or most of the tracks (there are a couple of "jamming" tracks which I find to still be unlistenable). 

 

Chris

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No, I haven't been able to edit DSD/DSF files, but then no one else has been able to either, AFAIK.  They have to first be converted to PCM to apply EQ, etc.  All Blu-Ray music files that I've come across are actually in PCM format (in various video disc formats, that is).

 

I reported on the Blu-Ray audio disc here because of the success ripping using the Oppo BDP-103 to recover the DSD files from SACDs.  That led me to acquire an external BD reader/writer drive for my Windows machines.  (The side benefit is that it allows someone to use a computer to watch BD  movies.)

 

I used MakeMKV to rip the audio files from the BD (i.e., I don't rip the video) into MKV format, then AudioMuxer to segment the MKV file(s) into separate PCM WAV files based on the chapters on the BD discs, then continue on to convert to FLAC and rename to music track titles that I manually type in.  So it takes two operations using two different apps to fully convert BD audio files to FLAC. 

 

After the BD audio files have been converted to FLAC, etc. from the above process, then I can analyze them within foobar2000 to determine their ReplayGain levels (identify those files that have been clipped) and their crest factors determined via the Dynamic Range Meter within foobar. 

 

At that point I can look at them using Audacity to see if mastering EQ (or perhaps FOH EQ used during live concerts) has been applied to them--by using the 1/f cumulative "plot spectrum" view (the "purple mountain" view) to see if EQ has been applied to alter the 1/f profile.  Deviations from the 1/f curve are used to guide the demastering EQ curves can then be applied and evaluated via listening. 

 

Chris

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Excellent work, Chris!

I decided to finish backing up the rest of my SACD's and have good success using a Sony BDP-BX510 to grab both the stereo and multi channel files from SACD's.  I also have a working process to pull the DTS and PCM audio (or sometimes AC3 is all you get) from my concert DVD's which a lot of the time sound better than the CD editions.  There is something very satisfying about that process!  I'd be glad to help anybody who wants to try... just send me a PM.  I'd do them for you for that matter if you needed.

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9 hours ago, Chris A said:

No, I haven't been able to edit DSD/DSF files, but then no one else has been able to either, AFAIK.

 

I think Audiogate 4 can do this. Explained all the way down this page:

https://www.korg.com/nl/products/audio/audiogate4/

A full complement of editing functionality, with support for editing in the DSD domain

In the past, editing data that was recorded in DSD format required extremely expensive pro audio equipment, and this acted as a significant impediment to DSD recording. AudioGate is able to carry out all of the basic editing operations needed for a stereo recorder --- splitting and joining songs, fade processing, volume adjustments, L/R balance adjustments, normalization, cutting DC components, editing marks --- all while staying within the domain of each supported format, including 1-bit DSD.

The DSD editing engine within AudioGate rivals those of professional DSD workstations. Since all DSD-based editing calculations are done while maintaining the sample rate, all the way up to 64 times (2.8224 MHz) or 128 times (5.6448 MHz), you don't need to worry about audio quality being impaired by the decimation filter that accompanies PCM conversion. "Direct output mode" allows unnecessary recalculations to be automatically bypassed, ensuring that the purity of the original audio source is completely retained in the output file.

A rich array of editing functionality for metadata such as song title, artist name, and attached graphics etc. is also a benefit provided by AudioGate.

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