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New $49 aftermarket K-510 Horn - Anyone Try yet?

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I bought some Ashly EQs from ZXPC (same seller) and one had an issue.  I sent it to Ashly in Rochester, NY to be repaired.  They came back with an unbelievable response.  The versions of the models he was selling were supposed to only be sold in China.  I bought them because they were less than half price of anyone else's same Ashly models sold here in the US.  Ashly went after this seller.  I don't know the outcome.  They repaired the unit for me for free and shipped it back free but were not happy at all about it.

 

I don't know where this guy is getting these horns but something smells fishy.

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I have no doubt these are made in China. After the patents are expired anyone can make them though and I think that is the case with the original 510 and also the 402.

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2 hours ago, Dave A said:

After the patents are expired anyone can make them though and I think that is the case with the original 510 and also the 402.

These two were never patented (i.e. the non-mumps version of the K-510 and the K-402).  The mumps was patented by Roy Delgado/KGI.  The grant was awarded in 2010 with expiration in 2027 (i.e., 20 years from the date of application). 

 

US07686129-20100330-D00007.png

 

An inventor has 12 months from first public disclosure of a patentable invention to file for a patent on that idea.  After that, no patent can be issued.  After 20 years from the submittal of a patent application, the patent runs out: all the claims of the original patent are then in the public domain (in the US).  There is no such thing as an "extension", only a new set of patentable items can be patented.  The old set of conditions/items are in the public domain. 

 

If the patent maintenance fees are not paid on the periodic time table that the USPTO sets, the patent expires.  After 2 years of patent expiration due to nonpayment of fees, the right to appeal the expiration due to nonpayment is lost. 

 

That is the basis of patent law.

 

Chris

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I have never seen a knockoff of a k402.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

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These are injection molded parts.  The tool costs big bucks and these are obscure parts to say the least.  I doubt very much someone copied or built a tool to sell a few old horns.

 

My guess is these are parts made from the original Klipsch tooling somehow............would love to understand how they came about knowing the past of the seller.  They may just be leftover parts he got somehow or was able to get some made.

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28 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

These are injection molded parts.  The tool costs big bucks and these are obscure parts to say the least.  I doubt very much someone copied or built a tool to sell a few old horns.

 

My guess is these are parts made from the original Klipsch tooling somehow............would love to understand how they came about knowing the past of the seller.  They may just be leftover parts he got somehow or was able to get some made.

 

Which also means I better buy a pair of them before they are gone.  lol   But it also sounds like it's not recommended to use these without going bi-amp and DSP...which I really don't want to do.  I would be using them as a 3-way so I wouldn't think it would be as big of a deal as they could be crossed over at 4.5kHz or 6kHz oh the top side.  OR maybe I'm wrong again.

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The cost of making molds has declined a lot with the advancement of machining and design software. A molding outfit with in house design build and molding capabilities wont have much trouble with a mold this size. The 402 however IS a different animal and that one does have a much more serious start up cost and very limited market. Reverse engineering is also cheap now and $500 bucks can buy a scan to 3D cad part file for things as basic as a 510 horn here in the USA.

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2 hours ago, avguytx said:

I would be using them as a 3-way so I wouldn't think it would be as big of a deal as they could be crossed over at 4.5kHz or 6kHz oh the top side.  OR maybe I'm wrong again.

Think of it like this for a three-way and avoid the extra horn (which causes all kinds of problems):

 

BMS dual diaphragm driver

 

https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_2020_03/663587418_BMS4592NDimage.jpg.6a321d3a9e5105e878088cb7170d215e.jpg

 

This is what I use on the K-402-MEH currently.  Sounds like a TAD TD-4002 when EQed properly.  You can get this with a passive crossover from BMS.  It's $525 from Thomann US.  It takes two business days to get them.

 

Chris

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5 hours ago, mark1101 said:

I bought some Ashly EQs from ZXPC (same seller) and one had an issue.  I sent it to Ashly in Rochester, NY to be repaired.  They came back with an unbelievable response.  The versions of the models he was selling were supposed to only be sold in China.  I bought them because they were less than half price of anyone else's same Ashly models sold here in the US.  Ashly went after this seller.  I don't know the outcome.  They repaired the unit for me for free and shipped it back free but were not happy at all about it.

 

I don't know where this guy is getting these horns but something smells fishy.

Sure it doesn't smell like a bat?:)

Mmmmm....bat   yummmmy

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Action

Jackson

up to bat...

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3 hours ago, Chris A said:

 It's $525 from Thomann US.  It takes two business days to get them.

 

Chris

 

They are $525 each?? I'll take a hard pass on that as it's just not that important.  

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9 hours ago, mark1101 said:

The versions of the models he was selling were supposed to only be sold in China.

 

Well, at least they weren't just knockoffs!

 

6 hours ago, mark1101 said:

These are injection molded parts.

 

For sure?  Can't stuff like this be 3D printed?

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6 hours ago, mark1101 said:

 

My guess is these are parts made from the original Klipsch tooling somehow............would love to understand how they came about knowing the past of the seller.  They may just be leftover parts he got somehow or was able to get some made.

 

This guy makes a lot of horns.  I assume he gets a sample, makes a negative mold and then has tooling to do this in China where he buys a minimum amount of these for a run. 

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On 3/12/2020 at 3:06 PM, CANT said:

 

Could they be NOS leftover from a previous supplier kind of like the KL series horn tweeters that are on Parts Express??? 

These horns are clones or copies of Klipsch K-510 horns.

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Look at the photos in the "other thread". They are not exact copies. There are differences, but I can't say whether they are "close enough". I have heard anecdotes that suggest the differences are important. 

Personally, I would hold out for the real deal. Even better, I would get the newest "mumps" design.

 

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10 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

Look at the photos in the "other thread". They are not exact copies. There are differences, but I can't say whether they are "close enough". I have heard anecdotes that suggest the differences are important. 

Personally, I would hold out for the real deal. Even better, I would get the newest "mumps" design.

 

What "differences" do you see other than the serial number? I've had these right in front of me for days now and they look like exact copies to me must have been molded from an original as suggested above. 

 

I agree I'd rather have the "mumps" version but $1250 a pair vs $120? 

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10 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

Personally, I would hold out for the real deal. 

 

Anyone looking for the "real deal" I have a set with B&C 75 drivers a complete KPT-904 HF kit I'll be posting for sale soon will start a thread in the garage sale section later this weekend.

20200313_142206 (800x600).jpg

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Got a pair in and side by side they are different. The mouth of the EBay horn has a sharp corner where it meets the mounting flange and the 510's I have are rounded there. The throat has as shown a square cutout like area like the 402 horn does and again my 510's don't have. Sharp corners EBay and rounded corners 510 from throat to mouth. The EBay horns are a more precision made product and all the mounting holes are in the same distance from the edge. There is a basic rectangular mounting hole pattern to the screw holes on both. The 510 I was looking at was canted slightly making some holes closer to the edge and some not. One of the 510 holes in that severely brittle material has cracked a chunk out because it was to close to the edge. The driver mounting flange on one 510  I have loose was not flat and when the driver was pulled in snug the flange cracked around one hole. The two EBay horns were flat in this area. The general slope on the top and bottom sides of the 510 have a bulge in there and I can't tell if this was by design or if the material has warped during cooling from molding or time. The same surfaces on the EBay horn are far more uniform and do not have this bulge. The 510's seem to be thicker and better braced with external ribs on the back side.

 

  I don't know what on the 510 horn is by design or accepted as manufacturing variance tolerances, which appear to be pretty sloppy, or if that was state of the art for that type of plastic at that time. These 510 horns I have, all eight whole and three broken ones, are no where near as precision as my two 402 horns are and just look crude. Also I don't have enough experience with the 510 horns to know if what I have was peculiar to production at that time and later horns were made better. These were made in that same time frame as those 402 horns which would sag and deform under heat so there were known issues from then with some Klipsch molded horns. If I was a large commercial customer with the inevitable breakage that would occur with this brittle stuff these horns I have were made of I would have been complaining.

 

  How these will measure for sound I will leave others to figure out but in all honesty those old 510 horns I have leave a lot to be desired on manufacturing consistency and product durability.  These EBay horns are kind of a mix of 402's and 510's.

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What Dave referred to as the "bulge" is the main difference I noticed. It is lacking, as far as I can tell, in the photos. The anecdotes I heard regarded this "bulge". My understanding is that it was certainly deliberate and not a manufacturing anomaly. 

 

IIRC, it was there to better control dispersion at the higher frequencies. Whether it has a big effect or not, I have no idea.

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6 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

What Dave referred to as the "bulge" is the main difference I noticed. It is lacking, as far as I can tell, in the photos. The anecdotes I heard regarded this "bulge". My understanding is that it was certainly deliberate and not a manufacturing anomaly. 

 

IIRC, it was there to better control dispersion at the higher frequencies. Whether it has a big effect or not, I have no idea.

I leaned towards the bulge being deliberate but as crude as these 510's I have are I was not sure.

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