Jump to content

First klipsch - Cornwall III vs IV


sjenriquez

Recommended Posts

I am a 63 year old longtime music lover and sometime audiophile.  I very rarely join in on conversations about any of the equipment I own or have owned because my “testing” is simply based on my own anecdotal experience, in my own idiosyncratic listening-rooms, with my own (mostly unusual) combination of components.  But I now own a pair of Cornwall IV, the purchase of which required I trade-in my beloved Cornwall III.  I bought the IVs without first hearing them because I also own a pair of Heresy IIIs and IVs, too, and I thought the improvement in sound between those two sets of speakers probably would also demonstrate the likely direction of differences between the two latest generations of Cornwalls.  

 

First, let me state this: the forth generation of either of those two speakers definitely sound more appealing than the already pretty good third generation.  Their bass and treble are more extended and their midrange projects more than the earlier generation.  The crossovers reportedly have been changed to steep-slope designs, which I really did not understand the significance of until I heard them.  Basically, to my ears, there is little to no overlap now between the frequencies at the crossing over points between the tweeter and midrange, midrange and woofer.  Whether or not that explains what difference in sound you will hear, I can tell you that, to my ears from my listening chair, the sound is just a good deal more clear.  I hate to say this, but, within its limitations as a wide-baffle/box speaker, the speakers both, but especially the already-better-sounding Cornwalls, sound more audiophile (as I compare them to my audiophile level Harbeth HL5 Super Plus and DeVore Orangutan 93 speakers).  I cannot yet say they sound more natural because neither or broken-in yet, but it is pretty obvious that they are better.  

 

I drive my Cornwalls in a large room with a Line Magnetic 845 20 watt SET, which is designed as an integrated amp but which I bypass directly to the amp because I drive the amp with a Shindo Vosne-Romanee preamplifier, fed signal from a Denafrips Terminator Plus receive streaming signal from a Bluesound Node playing mostly Tidal higher-res recordings.  Until I got the Cornwall IVs, the system with which I use the DeVore speakers sounded better, though less dynamic and exciting.  That system utilizes a Shindo Cortese SET with a Shindo Masseto preamp and Holo Audio Kitsune Edition DAC from my computer.  The Cornwalls IIIs were more fun to listen to in the larger room but the DeVore setup clearly was more resolving.  It is a closer thing now with the Cornwall IV.

 

My experience is that when more modern iterations of Klipsch Heritage speakers sound less musical it is either because they are driven by mismatched electronics (Class AB solid state other than more expensive brands, like McIntosh, Pass Labs, Krell, something like that) or the listener is more familiar with electrostatics or narrow-baffle ultra-modern audiophile designs, neither of which recreate the genuine tone and timbre of live music, in my experience (though please do not misunderstand me: I occasionally have LOVED the sound I have heard over certain Quad, Magnepan, Focal, Golden Ear etc. speakers).  

 

They don’t soundstage or image like the speakers that do that best.  Neither does most of the live music I have heard.  What they do, however, is sound closer to live music with the result that I enjoy recorded music nearing to the way I do listening to live music, which often has the hairs on the back of neck standing.  If that is what you like, too, I think you will thoroughly enjoy Cornwall IVs.  For me, they are quite good enough to pair with Line Magnetic, Shindo and Denafrips.  

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for sharing your perspective. You are the first person I have read that has both Devore and Klipsch heritage speakers. I have Klipsch Forte III's, although I was very keen on DeVore Orangutan 93s when I was contemplating my purchase in early 2019. At the time, I lived in Brooklyn in the same neighborhood of John Devore and thought it would be apropos to pair some of his speakers with the vintage McIntosh tube gear I had at the time (MC240 and MX110). 

 

I could not swallow the high cost of the Devore speakers, and because I was in a Brooklyn apartment, I went with the Forte III's. I have been very happy. But, also curious about what I might have left on the table.

 

I am now in a Washington D.C. apartment, so a larger speaker like the Cornwall IV is still likely a no go (although I do have a living room that can fit them). The Forte is more appropriate and to me, still sound very good. The dream of the Cornwall's lives on...

 

On the electronics front, I moved on to more modern McIntosh gear -- MC152 and a C41 (both solid state). To my ears, this was an improvement. For those of us that value low distortion, and high SND -- I guess that is to be expected? I also find, with the Forte's at least, that the right amount of power is more like 150 watts per channel than 55 watts (that I was getting with the MC240). Sure, I only use less than a 1 watt durning my listening sessions, but I find having more power controls the speakers better. And the bass, in particular, is more solid/present. 

 

I don't recall the math exactly, but if you want to experience the full dynamics of music listened to at or near live performance levels, you need the headroom only more watts can provide. For example, taking the Forte's sensitivity of 99db to achieve the dynamic peaks of an orchestra (which I wont be doing in my apartment) in the 110s db range, you would need around 150 watts on tap. There is a reason folks are putting 450+ watts on 85-90db efficient speakers. And using math (logarithms baby!) many efficient speakers (>95db) could stand to be fed some watts. I have been hanging around this forum long enough that I know this perspective would not run afoul of PWK (in fact, I believe it is exactly what he recommended)

 

Anyways, appreciate your first post here. Welcome! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have 5 full-blown systems, three at my house and two at my brothers.  I buy gear, mostly without audition, then try it it, almost always like it a lot, then get the bug later on for something better, buy it when I have the money, and then get too busy and too lazy to package up what I end up not using too much anymore and either shift it to my brother’s home or put it in a closet, sometimes bringing it back out to mix and match with a new change somewhere in one of the other components (speakers, amps, preamps, DACS, power conditioners, interconnects.  It’s nuts, I know, but it’s the only thing I blow money on and I have been fortunate enough to make a comfortable living so don’t worry about it too much.  I owned Forte speakers and they are the closest in sound to the Cornwalls, now that the Klipsch Chorus speakers are out of their Heritage lineup.  I agree with you about watts, generally, but have known specific exceptions (and there must be many more than I am familiar with).  As I write, I own and have in my home the Cornwalls, Volti Audio Razz, DeVore O93, and Epos M22 speakers.  Amp wise, I have a Shindo single-ended Cortese (10 watts), Shindo push-pull Montille (20 watts), Line Magnetic 845 (single ended, 20 watts), McIntosh 275 tube push pull (75 watts), Decware “Rachel” (6 watts, single-ended tube), and Pass Labs XA-25 (Class A, 25 watts).  At my brother’s house, I have 2 identical Conrad Johnson ET 250s (tube input, solid state output to 250 watts), Pass Lab XA60 monoblocks (60 watts, Class A), and Adcom something or other (250 watts, Class AB).  I have hooked those up to the entire array of Klipsch Heritage speakers I’ve owned and they all sound fantastic, except for the Shindo Cortese (too few watts and transformer-wound for 16, not 8, ohms), Decware (just too few watts) and Adcom (way too dry and sterile-sounding).  But the watts have not necessarily corresponded to the sonic weight or speed of the speakers.  The biggest sounding of all those amps is the little 20 watt Shindo Montille.  That amp boogies like NONE of the other on the Cornwalls.  So does the 20 watt SET Line Magnetic 845.  Huge sounding.  But each of the other amps, save the Adcom and Decware, also sounded great in slightly different ways.  I guess the proof that I did not necessarily prefer one to the other is the fact that I still cycle them through as the mood or curiosity strikes me.  Klipsch can be very revealing of changes upstream so I have found that I have to be just as careful matching preamps as amps.  I generally prefer tube electronics, especially if they don’t very obviously sound like tube electronics, to solid state.  But Class A solid state designs, like Pass Labs, compare very favorably with everything else I have heard.  For what I pay for DACs, preamps and amps, some people have told me that I should spend more on speakers.  I have not found that to be the case, though.  Klipsch, in my opinion, are very underrated in the audiophile community.  Matched with the right electronics, they can do things most other speakers cannot without really expensive, massive amps.  With the Cornwall IVs matched to my electronics, I can make them sound different but about as wonderful as my DeVore or Harbeth speakers, which, for good reason, are well-regarded among audiophiles.  I love them.  Hell, I love them all.  But I really love Klipsch, for delivering what they do for the price.  I know that you know what I mean.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are living my dream life.

 

I hope I was not to glib about my watts comment. I loved my classic McIntosh tube gear, but changed it up because of my current lifestyle. I have a young daughter who I worried about around hot tubes. And now working from home, the stereo is on all the time. I went through a set of output tubes in the MC240 last year because I was home and listening to the amp so much. 

 

Completely agree with Klipsch. My dad has magneplanar’s, 3.6s, and he was very skeptical when I got the Forte’s but changed his tune upon listening.

 

When I heard the harbeth slh5’s 6 or 7 years ago I thought they would be my next speaker. After hearing and living with Klipsch, I am not sure if I could ever give up the dynamics they provide.

 

I love live music. I went to 4 live shows last month, including seeing an orchestra play at the Kennedy Center. Klipsch, for me, comes the closet to replicating live music in my home. A big plus in my book.

 

Have fun with all your gear and great systems! One day, I hope I also have several different flavors of sound in various rooms.

 


 


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Ralph Lopez said:

I have 5 full-blown systems, three at my house and two at my brothers.  I buy gear, mostly without audition, then try it it, almost always like it a lot, then get the bug later on for something better, buy it when I have the money, and then get too busy and too lazy to package up what I end up not using too much anymore and either shift it to my brother’s home or put it in a closet, sometimes bringing it back out to mix and match with a new change somewhere in one of the other components (speakers, amps, preamps, DACS, power conditioners, interconnects.  It’s nuts, I know, but it’s the only thing I blow money on and I have been fortunate enough to make a comfortable living so don’t worry about it too much.  I owned Forte speakers and they are the closest in sound to the Cornwalls, now that the Klipsch Chorus speakers are out of their Heritage lineup.  I agree with you about watts, generally, but have known specific exceptions (and there must be many more than I am familiar with).  As I write, I own and have in my home the Cornwalls, Volti Audio Razz, DeVore O93, and Epos M22 speakers.  Amp wise, I have a Shindo single-ended Cortese (10 watts), Shindo push-pull Montille (20 watts), Line Magnetic 845 (single ended, 20 watts), McIntosh 275 tube push pull (75 watts), Decware “Rachel” (6 watts, single-ended tube), and Pass Labs XA-25 (Class A, 25 watts).  At my brother’s house, I have 2 identical Conrad Johnson ET 250s (tube input, solid state output to 250 watts), Pass Lab XA60 monoblocks (60 watts, Class A), and Adcom something or other (250 watts, Class AB).  I have hooked those up to the entire array of Klipsch Heritage speakers I’ve owned and they all sound fantastic, except for the Shindo Cortese (too few watts and transformer-wound for 16, not 8, ohms), Decware (just too few watts) and Adcom (way too dry and sterile-sounding).  But the watts have not necessarily corresponded to the sonic weight or speed of the speakers.  The biggest sounding of all those amps is the little 20 watt Shindo Montille.  That amp boogies like NONE of the other on the Cornwalls.  So does the 20 watt SET Line Magnetic 845.  Huge sounding.  But each of the other amps, save the Adcom and Decware, also sounded great in slightly different ways.  I guess the proof that I did not necessarily prefer one to the other is the fact that I still cycle them through as the mood or curiosity strikes me.  Klipsch can be very revealing of changes upstream so I have found that I have to be just as careful matching preamps as amps.  I generally prefer tube electronics, especially if they don’t very obviously sound like tube electronics, to solid state.  But Class A solid state designs, like Pass Labs, compare very favorably with everything else I have heard.  For what I pay for DACs, preamps and amps, some people have told me that I should spend more on speakers.  I have not found that to be the case, though.  Klipsch, in my opinion, are very underrated in the audiophile community.  Matched with the right electronics, they can do things most other speakers cannot without really expensive, massive amps.  With the Cornwall IVs matched to my electronics, I can make them sound different but about as wonderful as my DeVore or Harbeth speakers, which, for good reason, are well-regarded among audiophiles.  I love them.  Hell, I love them all.  But I really love Klipsch, for delivering what they do for the price.  I know that you know what I mean.

Very interesting to read, Ralph. I am still much younger than you, 62 years old. I have known Klipsch since my youth, I built our first full horns with a 17 year old buddy when I was 15. At that time a backloaded bass in principle like the Waldorf horns but only with a single 12" driver so half as wide. Midrange horns made of wood and cheap Monacor horn tweeters because of course we had no money. The amplifiers were self-built Siemens power amplifier boards. In addition, an old disused Dual turntable from my father. The coils of the xover we had calculated ourselves (basic, no rocket science) we wound with a drill on a piece of broomstick.

Man what we were proud of our system. At that time, about 1975 hifi just started to become popular in Germany. Earlier, before that time, it was a hobby of very few people.

Our self-made horns were so much more dynamic, powerful and natural than so-called hifi speakers. All listeners were pale because they never knew such a sound before.

At the same time I started playing electric guitar in bands. I had the great fortune to buy a fender super reverb very cheaply. Today a small fortune for such an amp, unfortunately I was stupid enough to sell it at 19 years. It was one of the best sounds I ever had, but it is also the memory of the best years of youth that transfigure the sound additionally. Another story. I want to say that I always had a direct line to the live sound by playing in the rehearsal room and on stages. So it was easily to compare how a hifi speaker should sound.

In the decades between I changed the apartment more often, as a student I no longer had the basement in the parental home, therefore no place for horn speakers and no permission for loud listening.

 

So I became interested in smaller speakers. I had over 10 years Tannoy 10" Alnico in self-built cabinets. Quite good! Then various BBC types from Spendor and Rogers. Today I still have two Stirling Broadcast. One LS3/6 and one LS3/5aV2. There is a charm that these speakers have...despite all the weaknesses. For example, the weaknesses, they work only for limited levels of volume, not too quiet because sounds are swallowed and not too loud because the speakers then compress ugly.

I also have two pairs of original Quad ESL57 and a large Tannoy Canterbury Alnico. Why am I telling all this? Because I believe that you have a similarly diverse experience with very different speakers.
In spite of all the good things about BBC speakers, for example, I came back to full horn speakers. In the end, the dynamics and the large area of the horn mouth that puts so many air molecules in motion is much more decisive than an ultra flat frequency response. It is the liveliness that no normal speaker can achieve as a radiator, no matter how many watts an amp delivers.

While I will never sell my little LS3/5a but otherwise they are horns for the rest of my life, my 1977 Lascalas and my 2008 Klipsch Jubilee Underground two way speakers.

An old friend just bought a house and he is asking me for advice on a new stereo system. I've known him for 53 years and I know what music he likes. He is very wealthy but he is always very reserved and sober when it comes to spending money on fun stuff. I respect that. While his parents had a very normal life, my friend has come a long way up in the chemical industry but he always kept the „keep on earth“ attitude.

He has set me a strict limit for the hifi system. 8000€. I already know what I will recommend him: Klipsch CW4 for his huge livingroom despite the money limit (they are expensive in Germany) That leaves 1500€ for an amp and a streamer (Bluesound Node 2021 as I enjoy it). And when he starts to enjoy the music in his now retired life we talk about an adequate amp later on. 

Klipsch horn speakers may not do everything right but they do substantially right what they do. That is the most important thing.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What a fun and interesting discussion this became.  I wish we all knew each other and lived close enough to hang out and listen to great music over so many wonderful systems.  I’ll report back as the IVs break in but I think I know what to expect, as many Klipsch speakers as I’ve owned.  If you can swing buying them, I recommend them.  Roy Delgado has been indispensable in improving PWK’s designs.  So far, the improvements between the series III speakers and series IV seem to be the best and most immediately noticeable, to my ears, anyway.  Happy listening, friends!  

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

ik heb cornwall III luidsprekers reeds een 10tal jaren in mijn bezit en deze staan nu al een paar jaren te spelen op  op mijn sansui au 9500 ss versterker ,ik ben heel tevreden over de klank ,  en een vriend van mij heeft ze altijd al willen kopen omdat hij ze ongelofelijk goed vindt klinken maar door omstandigheden had hij er toen het geld niet voor.

Nu zijn de omstandigheden veranderd en heeft hij 1 jaar geleden de cornwall Iv gekocht, hij vondt ze niet zo goed klinken dan mijn cornwall III en is dan ook op zoek gegaan naar dezelfde versterker dan ik bezit , ,en die heeft hij ook kunnen kopen, volledig laten reviseren en heeft er zijn cornwall Iv op aangesloten 

Hij heeft ze zo  6 maanden  beluisterd ,en komt soms langs om te vergelijken ,en wij vinden allebei de cornwall III een mooier voller geluid hebben, dan zijn cornwall Iv, we dachten dat er misschien toch een verschil zou zijn door de versterker en hebben dan toch de versterkers eens verwisseld en het resultaat was ; de cornwall III vonden we nog steeds beter spelen ! we hebben verschillende stijlen muziek gespeelt,rock,blues ,jazz...de cornwall III  is gewoon beter.....gewoon de mening van mij en mijn jeugdvriend...hij weet nog niet wat hij gaat doen...zijn cornwalls verkopen en op zoek gaan naar cornwall III, hij gaat  even afwachten...zo zie je maar...smaken verschillen...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, arnokill said:

ik heb cornwall III luidsprekers reeds een 10tal jaren in mijn bezit en deze staan nu al een paar jaren te spelen op  op mijn sansui au 9500 ss versterker ,ik ben heel tevreden over de klank ,  en een vriend van mij heeft ze altijd al willen kopen omdat hij ze ongelofelijk goed vindt klinken maar door omstandigheden had hij er toen het geld niet voor.

Nu zijn de omstandigheden veranderd en heeft hij 1 jaar geleden de cornwall Iv gekocht, hij vondt ze niet zo goed klinken dan mijn cornwall III en is dan ook op zoek gegaan naar dezelfde versterker dan ik bezit , ,en die heeft hij ook kunnen kopen, volledig laten reviseren en heeft er zijn cornwall Iv op aangesloten 

Hij heeft ze zo  6 maanden  beluisterd ,en komt soms langs om te vergelijken ,en wij vinden allebei de cornwall III een mooier voller geluid hebben, dan zijn cornwall Iv, we dachten dat er misschien toch een verschil zou zijn door de versterker en hebben dan toch de versterkers eens verwisseld en het resultaat was ; de cornwall III vonden we nog steeds beter spelen ! we hebben verschillende stijlen muziek gespeelt,rock,blues ,jazz...de cornwall III  is gewoon beter.....gewoon de mening van mij en mijn jeugdvriend...hij weet nog niet wat hij gaat doen...zijn cornwalls verkopen en op zoek gaan naar cornwall III, hij gaat  even afwachten...zo zie je maar...smaken verschillen...

The IV is definitely a more modern, more linear / audiophile sounding speaker. Which makes it a BETTER speaker objectively for most. But some might prefer the more colored sound of the III... that midrange horn on the IV however is a masterpiece and the tiny mid horn on the previous versions is seriously limiting the speaker. Personally I think the CW IV is one of the very best speakers money can buy and, although not cheap, is fantastic value compared to the competition.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/1/2020 at 11:05 AM, kink56 said:

The III had too much cabinet resonance for my tastes (of which most owners of them either denied, did not notice or actually preferred). I have found getting honest, critical assessment of ANY Klipsch product futile here on the fanboi site. I would love to get a non-hyped, honest DETAILED comparison between the III and IV, other than "it's better".   My hope is to one day get a Heritage design that has a completely sonically "invisible" cabinet.  A Cornwall or La Scala that completely disappears like the best British monitors or electrostats would be what I am after.   Right now the closest I can get is Forte I and it is not nearly close enough. 

 

I would love to audition a AL5 or Cornwall IV in my home, but I would feel guilty returning them if I did not like them. Due to the shipping costs would be damaging to the store that allowed for this. 

 

Well stated. You can hardly ever get a constructive response with any specifics other than fanboy blanket statements. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...