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electrolytic capacitors


Dave A
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On 3/14/2020 at 7:34 PM, Dave A said:

Jeffrey, I have my basic crossover layout done. Can you tell me if this looks right?

DSC_0017.JPG


So, what we have here, take your pick, are games from our youth - 

a) pick up sticks

b) tinker toys

c) exploded Rubik’s cube

and / or 

d) Rorschach test

e) rare Picasso 

or / and

f) pile of shyte 
 

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5 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Yes, mechanical stability is the key. I used to manage the Honda Design group where we did a "build to print" for Honda Accord Electronics. The Japanese insisted o Single Sided boards with stand up resistors (which were Axial Leaded resistors that had one lead bent 180 degrees that required us to invest in Universal Radial Lead Insertion equipment for their specific line in the plant). The bummer was that the meeting I attended at Universal Instruments HQ in New York state, was literally 100 feet away from McIntosh HQ in Conklin..........so close, yet so far away......LOL.

 

This is why the "minimum etch/maxium copper" method of PCB design is used on Single Sided boards, since the "rivet effect" of plated holes of a double sided board is absent and there is full reliance on just the copper's adhesive (surface area driven) for mechanical robustness. In the same manner, 4 leads are more stable than just 2 on radial components.

Stand up axial resistors? Have not seen those since 6-transistor pocket radios of the 60s. I'd think they would be more fragile than having the axials just lay on the board with the lads going to the pads.

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1 hour ago, richieb said:


So, what we have here, take your pick, are games from our youth - 

a) pick up sticks

b) tinker toys

c) exploded Rubik’s cube

and / or 

d) Rorschach test

e) rare Picasso 

or / and

f) pile of shyte 
 

It is an artistic rendering of a crossover and your total lack of discerning artistic appreciation is noted.

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40 minutes ago, boom3 said:

Stand up axial resistors? Have not seen those since 6-transistor pocket radios of the 60s. I'd think they would be more fragile than having the axials just lay on the board with the lads going to the pads.

 

Someone told me a long time ago that more heat is shed by the resistor leads than by the resistor body. If true, then the one longer lead on a stand-up resistor mount makes sense.

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On 3/14/2020 at 7:34 PM, Dave A said:

Jeffrey, I have my basic crossover layout done. Can you tell me if this looks right?

 

Dave,

You seem to have an imbalance in your cap distribution. I see 6 black, 5 yellow, 4 red and 1 blue. It's no wonder you can not reach superiority in performance when you have no balance. BUT! BUT! You can correct this simply by adding 5 blue, 2 red, and 1 yellow soldered in series. Now get it done and report back in the morning! You have been given a simple task so get to it! I fully expect The Completion Backwards Principle to be fully deployed upon completion.

WTF did I just say?

 

Mark

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On 3/14/2020 at 8:58 PM, Dave A said:

Great and I will start looking. I have solder and a heavy duty soldering iron on order and thanks for the tips.

Remember the solder needs to be 99.9% silver with the other  .1% a composition of 28% copper, 56% gold, 11% titanium and 5% zinc. IF you want the finest transfer of signal to noise ratio

 

Mark

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8 hours ago, ZEUS121996 said:

Dave,

You seem to have an imbalance in your cap distribution. I see 6 black, 5 yellow, 4 red and 1 blue. It's no wonder you can not reach superiority in performance when you have no balance. BUT! BUT! You can correct this simply by adding 5 blue, 2 red, and 1 yellow soldered in series. Now get it done and report back in the morning! You have been given a simple task so get to it! I fully expect The Completion Backwards Principle to be fully deployed upon completion.

WTF did I just say?

 

Mark

Oh, well I though the general principle was to keep adding what you had on hand until the shelf was bare and tune it by ear as you went. Remember though that color imbalance on the caps can be neutralized by opposing color ties snugged to the outside and a little experimentation and checking with your earaudiometer will yield a superbly balanced output.

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6 hours ago, Dave A said:

On a serious note here I had read that using two caps to reach a final value could reduce ESR. Combining a 10uf and 15uf gave me half the esr of either cap separately and half that of the 25uf on it's own.

 

Capacitance adds in parallel. Resistance divides in parallel.

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On 3/13/2020 at 10:44 PM, glens said:

Jeff, I want you to fashion a setup where the bypass caps can instantly be switched into and out of the circuit.  You may use as much 8AWG mil-spec silver-plated wire as necessary, and as high-precision gold-plated-contact switches, too.  I'll then come and operate the switches while you listen.  I want to see you be able to detect change!

A-B testing?  BLASPHEMY! You must live and listen with each change for at least a century.

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On 3/14/2020 at 12:44 AM, glens said:

Jeff, I want you to fashion a setup where the bypass caps can instantly be switched into and out of the circuit.  You may use as much 8AWG mil-spec silver-plated wire as necessary, and as high-precision gold-plated-contact switches, too.  I'll then come and operate the switches while you listen.  I want to see you be able to detect change!

I have had a similar discussion with Jeff, and he will correct me if my understanding is wrong.  He told me it takes hours or perhaps overnight to "form", and so changes are not instantly noticeable. 

 

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15 hours ago, Dave A said:

Combining a 10uf and 15uf gave me half the esr of either cap separately and half that of the 25uf on it's own.

 

So now you'll need an extra 1/2 ohm on the resistor you need anyway to knock down the level of the driver?

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1 hour ago, glens said:

 

Yeah, sure, that's the reason no change can be discerned in an A/B...

 

And "un"forming is instantaneous?

LOL, I don't know.   I suggested a null box experiment and was told that it couldn't be measured that way.  That's entirely the point of a null box.

 

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41 minutes ago, glens said:

Yeah.  Excuses why no difference can be heard in A/B for some of this stuff are legion, and mostly ought to be used as punch lines for really geeky jokes.

I'm not justifying any of the previous comments, but I will say that A/B testing works best when there are obvious differences of sound in two sources. The brain, by default, looks for similarities; symmetries, so your brain will want to highlight what sounds the same in two subtly different sound sources. Subtle differences are best found by listening to either source for a period of time, same set of music pieces, and making notes of what stands out to you in each source, then comparing notes.

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Agreed.  The time required to "pick out" the difference is inversely proportional to the amount of difference.  But once you've reached loops of several minutes you've substantially reached your goal.  When the time gets very long your ability to discern goes out the window.  Presumably the differences you're then comparing also include environmental and physiological influences which change throughout the day and especially from day to day.  Don't forget that this particular individual above has claimed to discern driver time alignment within 1/8 inch, and the sweetening of the spectrum in certain ranges with the same value capacitors in either gain stages or at-speaker crossovers!  Certainly A/Bing bypass caps in a crossover will be a test he can pass with flying colors.  I want to see it happen!  It would be as awe-inspiring as watching a person juggle running chainsaws while riding a unicycle blindfolded.

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