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Which Klipsch to buy?


rvnye

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18 minutes ago, Randyh said:

do you really like the CF-4 ,  compared to klf-30 or  Heritage series ---just curious what they can compare to

I love the CF-4's.  I listen to them everyday and I did eventually put them on the floor.  They sound better there.

 

They are not perfect.  I thought they were a little nasal and there was a HF harshness that once I heard it, I could not un-hear it.  I put some pure silicon caulk to damp the horn and added a little fibrefil and the problems were gone.  This is now a super accurate speaker with no coloration.  Add some power and the CF-4's come alive.  A grand piano now sounds like a grand piano.  Great accuracy, great dynamics, a pleasure to listen to all day log.

 

I added a 15" sealed sub to give some power to the lowest octave, and now I consider the CF-4 w/sealed 15" sub to be a 3-way system and it's the best I've heard.  Better than my La Scala's, better than my Khorn's.  I've not heard anything in the KLF series.

 

1325583077_EmotivaUMC-200XPA-5Inuke3000dspKlipschCF-4_800.thumb.jpg.535f87a2ccb4b3be25872a2c875471e5.jpg

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11 hours ago, baron167 said:

I'm thinking I remember you posting about it awhile back. Have you kept the configuration? How happy are you with it? Thank you

 

I briefly posted my experience here: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/188177-double-stack-ess-amt-1-with-wings-possible-kit-for-heritage/page/11/&tab=comments#comment-2449103

 

In the very small room that they are in, virtually nothing sounds very good.  The ESS AMT-1s on top of the bass bins smooth out the sound over the Shinall KKS Khorn clone tweeter (EV T35's), and midrange drivers (Atlas PD-5VH).  I found that even after dialing in the Khorn clones, they still sounded harsh. 

 

So I removed the top hats of the Shinall KKS's and placed a single AMT-1 on top of each one (two way operation).  This helped a great deal with the harshness, etc. but the constraint is now that you need to be sitting or standing in this small room at the nominal listening position for it to sound balanced.  I attribute this to the limited vertical coverage of the AMT-1.  If I ever get a replacement diaphragm for the failed AMT-1 diaphragm (it failed during 99 dB/1 m pink noise operation to break in the diaphragms, but ESS has yet to honor their promise to replace it under warranty), I plan on using the extra two channels of the Yamaha SP2060 and adding another pair of AMT-1s on top of the existing ones with wings, then adding delay and attenuation to approximate a line array, albeit a two elements only line array.  See the following for more: 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/188177-double-stack-ess-amt-1-with-wings-possible-kit-for-heritage/page/26/&tab=comments#comment-2474053

 

11 hours ago, rvnye said:

Next, I don't have a Windows laptop to run the Xilica software.

 

Up until the current corona virus quarantine, many options for refurbished Windows laptops could be had for less than $100 from Amazon.   I now see that all of them are gone--apparently as a result of telecommuting (work and school).  I assume that inexpensive Windows laptops will be available again in the future.

 

11 hours ago, rvnye said:

If I were to bi-amp instead of tri-amp, would I power one of the crossovers, and one of the drivers?  Like power the subwoofer with a separate amp, and power the mid/high crossover with a 2nd amp?

 

I've fielded this question many times.  Yes it would work but you'd still need to move the tweeter to the top of the loudspeaker to time align it to the midrange horn/driver. Otherwise, you'd be listening to the very large time misalignment of the tweeter to the midrange (about 3 complete wavelengths of misalignment at 5 kHz).  Paul Klipsch used to say that the weakest link of the system will dominate the sound of all the loudspeakers (in reference to center channel loudspeaker performance).  In the case of time alignment of tweeter/midrange drivers, I've found the same effect.  You're still listening to time misaligned tweeter/midrange drivers, and this is quite audible.

 

11 hours ago, rvnye said:

If you tri-amp, there is no need for the [passive] crossover, right?

 

You'll only need a single DSP crossover upstream of the amplifiers and downstream of the preamp:

 

Bi-amp, active horizontal.GIF

 

11 hours ago, rvnye said:

Also, what amps would you recommend for the low, middle & high?  SET amp for each?  SS amp for the lows?

 

I've used older Crown D-75A's that I acquired through ebay and craigslist for about $75-$100 each.  I now use ICEpower modules from this source:

 

http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/bang-olufsen-icepower50asx2-module.html

 

with a box from China:

 

http://www.ghentaudio.com/kit/asx50-sr.html

 

It takes about 3-4 weeks transit time for the Ghent boxes to arrive at US addressees. The ICEpower 50ASX2 amplifier modules arrive within a week of ordering them.  The D-75As have XLR balanced connections, while the ICEpower modules/Ghent box have unbalanced RCA connections.  The rack-mount Crown D-75As are usually quieter because of this.

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, Negatron said:

A friend of mine has a HT that is in a 10'x12' treated room with a 5.2.4 setup with La Scalas and it sounds great
 

  I do not think the La Scala’s work best in a small room. My pair needs some room around them to open up. 

  One positive is all the boundary reflections should help with the MIA bottom 11/2 octaves.  Maybe in a small room a subwoofer is not needed with LS.

  I have run mine full range several times and the balance is off on some recordings. Currently crossing at 65 Hz with 12 dB slope on low pass and 18 dB slope on high pass. Sub contributes above a 100 Hz. Without the sub the response seems tilted.

  I would go for the H IV (unheard) and no sub in the small room. People say the H IV is much improved over the H III. Especially on the bottom. I really like my H III.

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Chris, I do have a Rotel 6 channel amp (60w/ch) that I'm no longer using (RCA inputs sadly).  I found a dbx DriveRack PA2 (2 channel in, 6 channel out) DSP with what looks like a very simple easy to use interface for $439.  It would be nice to have 4 outputs (hi, middle, low plus subs), but I could use the xover on the subs if I wanted to add subs to the La Scalas.  Overview video below.  I just need to get a line level output out of my Woo Audio preamp, or get another preamp.  This is sounding more doable.  Richard

 

 

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Good DSP crossovers (in my experience) include:

 

Xilica XP series (usually the XP-4080), ElectroVoice DC-One, miniDSP "HD" series (2x4 HD, 4x10 HD are surprisingly good but a somewhat susceptible to common mode noise), Yamaha SP2060...

 

I would not buy the miniDSP 2x4 (that is--without the "HD"), dbx DriveRack (the lowest priced models), and Behringer.  Off-brands are also a risk for home hi-fi duty, but there are even less expensive DSP crossovers meant for auto duty that Dayton Audio puts out--that I wouldn't recommend for home hi-fi. For instance: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dsp-408-4x8-dsp-digital-signal-processor-for-home-and-car-audio--230-500.  I'd leave those out of the lineup of DSP candidates.

 

Your DSP crossover in the scheme of things should probably cost more than your preamp (without DACs), and probably on par with your amplifiers.  But note that I can get ICEpower amplifiers for ~$170 with box (unbalanced connections) that are really good.  So in the scheme of things (and all other things being equal...which they never are...), you should be looking at the cost of the DSP crossover being probably about the same expense as your DAC/preamp/processor (AVP).  Most of the time, you're going to be buying DSP crossovers new since the good ones are not usually available used. 

 

If I were going to set the schema for the relative cost rankings of your hi-fi components (and hold on to your hats):

 

1) loudspeakers (by far)...the more money you put here, the better the performance

2) DSP crossover

3) preamp/processor (but about the same as DSP crossover, and sometimes a little more than DSP)

4) amplifiers

5) everything else...including DACs (if you go this route, which I don't...my DACs are in my pre/pro), turntables/phono preamps, disc players, etc., and room acoustic treatments (which can be largely DIY).

 

You should have a USB microphone (for convenience) and a Windows laptop or desktop computer with HDMI (which can be very inexpensive, and also prior versions of Windows than Win10). 

 

Cables can be extremely inexpensive if digital (HDMI, USB, S/PDIF, AES/EBU XLR). 

 

I always try to minimize the conversion to analog, because that's where the noise gets into the system and the real distortion and other signal degradation all reside.  So if using a two-channel DAC, you can output directly to a miniDSP 4x10 HD and bypass a conversion to analog out of the preamp---and directly connect to the DSP crossover via digital buses. Output from the DSP crossover is best if balanced connections--going to the amplifiers, but careful routing of power cables can reduce the common mode noise (60/120/180/240 Hz).

 

Chris

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@rvnye

 

I have La Scala 2's and they are awesome.  However, 1) they need a sub, and 2) with only 9.5' to work with, by the time you place them in the corners and toe them in a bit, you would have about 4.5' of space between them in a room that's 20' deep - a little tight IMHO.

 

I also have Heresy 3's and they are also awesome, surprisingly close to the La Scala 2's.  I'm sure the H4's are a step up from the H3's, however, 1) they need a sub, and 2) they will fit much better in the corners of a 9.5' front wall - just know you have to have them 12" off the front wall because of the rear passive radiator.  They would be a better fit than the LS2's IMHO.

 

If you want a Klipsch heritage speaker that doesn't need a sub and fits in your space, you might want to consider the Forte 3.  The Cornwall 4 would also do the job but it's wider than a La Scala 2.

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Hi, rvnye!

 

Welcome to the Forum!

 

in case you haven’t heard enough opinions, here are mine. If you decide to go for the La Scala IIs, you should be pleased, since they’re great speakers.  The Cherry ones are rarer than the usual Walnut ones, so that should make them more desirable and a bit more valuable.  Like most Heritage Series speakers, they like to be near a room boundary, a wall, or even better, a corner.  Unlike many “hi-fi” speakers, they don’t need to be out in the room, and actually shouldn’t be.  I’ve got both original La Scalas and LS2s, and have experimented a bit with speaker placement.

 

Since my living/listening room is open on one side (the Right speaker side), I kept the Left speaker about a metre/yard from its adjacent corner, to minimize the gain it would show if it was right in the corner.  This allows the two speakers to be within half a dB in overall output, with neutral balance set between them.  While experimenting to find the best distance from the front wall (the wall in front of me and behind the speakers), I found that the smoothest bass response (with fewest dips and peaks) happened when the speakers were 4”-5” away from the front wall.  With the speakers toed-in, this measurement was the distance between the front wall and the corner of the speaker nearest to the wall.  This was the left rear corner on the Right speaker and the right rear corner on the Left speaker, of course.

 

Moving the speakers further away from the front wall and further into the room provided no improvement in the bass response, and just took up more space in the room.  When they were nearly touching the wall, the bass became a bit boomy.  The degree of toe-in is up to you, and your taste in toe-in may change over time.  Don’t be afraid to experiment!  In spite of their size and weight, if your speakers have the typical steel button feet, they’re easy to slide around on carpet.

 

Chris A commented that the time misalignment between the woofers and the HF section is not clearly audible to everyone, and I agree.  My LS2s have the full JubScala conversion, meaning they’re now 2-way, bi-amped, and time-aligned, thanks to the E-V Dx38 processor/active crossover.  The time-alignment does improve the sound, but it’s subtle (to my ears, at least) and it’s not obvious with every kind of music.  If the tune has a bass line that matches the beats of the mid/high part of the piece, you’ll be able to hear it, but the rest of the time, it won’t be obvious, unless you’re listening carefully for it.

 

As for the cost of doing all these mods, the price adds up fast.  If you already have La Scalas, original or Type II, you might decide it’s worth spending more than you paid for the speakers to wind up with a definitely improved listening experience.  However, if you don’t have a pair of Scalas yet, and you want to invest (ha-ha, “invest”) quite a bit of money in your speakers, it’s time to think about getting Jubilees.  Instead of having custom hot-rodded speakers, you’ll have a warranteed stock pair of speakers that sound better than any La Scalas, La Scala IIs, JubScalas, Klipschorns, whatever.

 

Sure, Jubilees are really big, but they’re the best-sounding Klipsch speakers that will fit into most homes.  To get sound that’s at all better, you’d need to get into the really huge Pro Theater speakers, which take up a lot of room.

 

Possibly the most logical way to go is to get the La Scala IIs, if not this pair, another pair, and upgrade your sources and electronics.  You’ll definitely hear the difference, and you’ll have relatively sensible-sized speakers.

 

You mentioned that you thought they might be too revealing.  To me, that’s like grumbling that your TV picture is too clear.  Does anyone want to watch Standard Definition after watching HD TV for a while?  One thing that can help in that department, if you have and use a turntable, is careful selection of your cartridge.  Some carts sail quietly through scratches, while other cartridges may produce unlistenable sounds from the same old LP.

 

Okay, that’s it.

 

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12 hours ago, Randyh said:

Chris -----question

1) for passive bi amping -----any suggestions as far as gear -----or is that simply an XO  modification

2)  is the xilica 8080 as good as 4080 

3)  do you know of a Driverack  series that is not very noisy , I tried the PA-2 and it is not a quiet as the Xilica imho -----tx

 

  1. Passive bi-amping is usually a function of the passive crossover network and drivers that you've got that's currently being monoamped.  When you break the circuit of the passive crossover into two parts, the impedance of the two circuits (usually the bass bin is separated from the midrange/tweeter circuit) will now be different to each amplifier output circuit.

    If the impedance response of the two circuits with their drivers is high enough (usually 3 ohms is an absolute minimum to design for), then all you need to do is measure the SPL response of the bass bin and the midrange/tweeter separately to see if any response changed, and use something like DATS (or REW's impedance measurement facility) to verify that the impedance minimum is not too low.  If the SPL response is changed, you can use upstream EQ to correct it, but if the impedance drops too low, and/or the crossover frequencies have moved from their monoamping response, then you'll have to modify the crossover network to raise the minimum impedance and/or move the crossover points back to where they belong, and then rebalance the SPL response of both the bass bin and midrange/tweeter circuits. 

    If the passive crossover networks are designed to be separated for bi-amping (as most of the Klipsch networks are nowadays), then the above procedures are bypassed and all you need to do it measure the SPL response again to verify that the two parts of the loudspeaker now being bi-amped remain in balance, and that their individual SPL responses are not adversely affected. 
     
  2. There is no difference between the Xilica XP units in terms of performance except the number of input and output channels.  I own a XP-8080 because I got a good deal on ebay for an open box XP-8080, so that's why I own one.  I only need three input channels and 7 output channels, currently.  The surround loudspeakers and TH subs are handled by other DSP units in my setup.
     
  3. I'm not really a dbx DriveRack knowledgeable person.  I only listen to others here on the forum that do and they pretty much unanimously recommend not using their lowest priced models.  I'm not currently aware of which models those are by model number. Harman/JBL also markets special-purpose DSP crossovers. 

 

6 hours ago, Islander said:

 ...When they were nearly touching the wall, the bass became a bit boomy.  

This can be true if you don't EQ them flat again (using that DSP crossover you will now own to do it)...and all you have to do is EQ the 100-200 Hz band flat again. All loudspeakers need to be EQed flat again when being placed in room corners (even Khorns--but usually not as much).  Bass traps are really needed for any home-sized listening room to control 100-200 Hz boom, controlling the in-room reverberation time of that frequency band.

 

Chris

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6 hours ago, Islander said:

Chris A commented that the time misalignment between the woofers and the HF section is not clearly audible to everyone, and I agree.  My LS2s have the full JubScala conversion, meaning they’re now 2-way, bi-amped, and time-aligned, thanks to the E-V Dx38 processor/active crossover.  The time-alignment does improve the sound, but it’s subtle (to my ears, at least) and it’s not obvious with every kind of music.  If the tune has a bass line that matches the beats of the mid/high part of the piece, you’ll be able to hear it, but the rest of the time, it won’t be obvious, unless you’re listening carefully for it.

 

I find that time misalignments are audible with all music in my listening room...any loudspeaker that's not time-aligned.  This includes the center and surround loudspeakers, and also subwoofers.  That's why we have adjustable channel delays in multichannel sound systems (i.e., AVPs, AVRs, etc.).

 

In very small listening rooms, there's not much that you can do short of over-damping the room using lots and lots of absorption panels on the walls and other acoustically large reflective objects, thick carpet, and perhaps ceiling-mounted acoustic tiles.  When the dimensions of the room are too small, there is not enough time delay and/or damping/diffusion to cut the opposite wall reflections, and you get early reflections from opposite room directions that are too strong and that confuse the human hearing system.  This leads to listening fatigue and the inability to play the loudspeakers at anything approaching concert levels without creating a muddled sound. 

 

Chris

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6 hours ago, Islander said:

Unlike many “hi-fi” speakers, they don’t need to be out in the room, and actually shouldn’t be.

This is a function of the loudspeakers' directivity vs. frequency.  I find that loudspeakers having full range directivity (i.e., directivity above 200 Hz) like La Scalas, Belles, Khorns, Jubilees, and MWM-based systems--these loudspeakers all have the ability to be placed into room corners without needing significant room acoustic treatments to control early reflections.

 

For loudspeakers having no directivity, then you've got a dilemma: early reflections off nearby surfaces due to the loudspeaker not having full range directivity create listening problems. 

 

Chris

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@Chris - You said, "I always try to minimize the conversion to analog, because that's where the noise gets into the system and the real distortion and other signal degradation all reside.  So if using a two-channel DAC, you can output directly to a miniDSP 4x10 HD and bypass a conversion to analog out of the preamp---and directly connect to the DSP crossover via digital buses. Output from the DSP crossover is best if balanced connections--going to the amplifiers, but careful routing of power cables can reduce the common mode noise (60/120/180/240 Hz)."

My Berkeley Alpha DAC has digital outputs.  I agree with you to minimize D to A conversions, would I use the miniDSP to control volume?  If not, how would you recommend?  (this is sounding more feasible since I would just need to get a $500 mini DSP, some cables and use the 6 channel Rotel I already have) 

 

Several years ago I got a great deal on Magnepan MG20.1 ($2K!!) and an Accuphase P1000 amp (another $2K!).  It scratched an itch I had ever since I was in college and my friend bought some of the first Maggies (MG2s I think) and they were amazing to my ears at the  time.  I replaced the Accuphase with Manley Neo Classic 250W monoblocks (tube amps).  They made the MG20.1s sing (and heated the house in the winter), but took up most of my listening room.  Another itch was a small SET system, which sounded appealing and would give me my room back.  That's how I ended up with a small SET amp (well, still 70 lbs) and the Tonian Labs TLD-1 speakers.  La Scalas are another itch from college era, and I found a nice pair of 1 year old LSs in cherry.  They're a little big, but I think I can make them work.  But I'm not sure I'm ready for the mods (DSP, etc.) right now.  All of the upgrades would give me some "runway" to tinker and learn.  But for now I think I would be satisfied with the stock La Scalas until I got the upgrade itch.

 

@ Islander, Jubilees are out of the question - too big for me!  Also, my sources and other electronics are very good.  I'm running a Woo Audio WA5 300b SET (with Takatsuki 300b tubes), Berkley Alpha DAC, and Bryston BDP-1 digital audio player.

 

Saying this in the Klipsch forum may be heresy (pun intended), but I'm also considering Tekton Perfect SET speakers.  Definitely not as cool as the LSs, doesn't have the upgrade potential, or the support of long term enthusiasts on a cool forum, but they might be more plug and play.

 

Thanks again for helping me to think through this.  It is a fascinating hobby.

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18 hours ago, pbphoto said:

@rvnye

 

I have La Scala 2's and they are awesome.  However, 1) they need a sub, and 2) with only 9.5' to work with, by the time you place them in the corners and toe them in a bit, you would have about 4.5' of space between them in a room that's 20' deep - a little tight IMHO.

 

I also have Heresy 3's and they are also awesome, surprisingly close to the La Scala 2's.  I'm sure the H4's are a step up from the H3's, however, 1) they need a sub, and 2) they will fit much better in the corners of a 9.5' front wall - just know you have to have them 12" off the front wall because of the rear passive radiator.  They would be a better fit than the LS2's IMHO.

 

If you want a Klipsch heritage speaker that doesn't need a sub and fits in your space, you might want to consider the Forte 3.  The Cornwall 4 would also do the job but it's wider than a La Scala 2.

  Are you sure about the HIII and passive radiator? 

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