Which Klipsch to buy?

[Chris A]

19 hours ago, rvnye said:

...would I use the miniDSP to control volume? 

There is an WI-DG wifi control for the miniDSP HD series, and there is an IR control for the 2x4 HD.

 

19 hours ago, rvnye said:

I'm also considering Tekton Perfect SET speakers.

These are going to have polar coverage issues on the top end (HF), and significant comb filtering above that frequency band if there is no crossover or polar shading of the tweeters using delay and attenuation (like a line array in two dimensions) from the seven tweeters to the central tweeter above ~1-2 kHz, leaving the other 6 tweeters behind.  Why pay for seven tweeters when one will work much better?  High frequency diffraction is the catchword.

 

This narrow polar coverage issue (both horizontally and vertically) is very audible in-room.  You will have the disadvantages of the Magnepan planar loudspeaker without the advantages.  The tweeters are too far apart.  You would need a continuous line source of tweeters--like the Magnepan IIIa's had back in 1984--to avoid the problems that I have mentioned.

 

 

Also, these are much more intrusive than even Jubilees in-room.  I'd rethink this speakers-away-from-the-wall approach to hi-fi loudspeakers.

 

Chris

[glens]

My first notion is those speakers are humdingers.  Now if there were 7 channels of DSP feeding the tweeter array some interesting things could be done.  Perhaps a higher novelty factor than useful-or-at-least-preferred.  But I'd bet you could really shape the pattern of whatever.

[Chris A]

A.k.a., like a phased-array radar...

 

 

But remember that the spacing of the elements in the array needs to be less than 1/4 wavelength of the highest radiated frequency.  Otherwise, you get this:

 

 

The 1/4 wavelength that corresponds to 20 kHz acoustic signal is 0.17 inches (4.3 mm)... 🤔

 

Chris

[Chris A]

This is the same issue of why supertweeters, as a basic idea, don't work very well.  If you time align a supertweeter at 10 kHz at the listening position (seated) with the next highest frequency driver, they'll be out of phase if you stand up from a sitting position. 

 

You need to integrate the tweeter diaphragm with the next highest frequency compression driver diaphragm and cross at a lower frequency--like the dual-diaphragm BMS compression drivers.

 

 

Chris

[rvnye]

Only the center driver of the 7 driver array is a tweeter. The 6 other drivers work in unison as a midrange driver (with longer wavelengths).  The speaker is said to sound lively and realistic (like real music). 

[glens]

I guessed that's how they did it.  I may have seen reference to them before.  Even if the crossover to the center is as low as 1.2 kHz (a guess), the outer drivers have got to be more than a wavelength apart (across the middle).  And there's still all the real estate consumed...

[Islander]

On 4/15/2020 at 10:15 AM, rvnye said:

 

La Scalas are another itch from college era, and I found a nice pair of 1 year old LSs in cherry.  They're a little big, but I think I can make them work.  But I'm not sure I'm ready for the mods (DSP, etc.) right now.  All of the upgrades would give me some "runway" to tinker and learn.  But for now I think I would be satisfied with the stock La Scalas until I got the upgrade itch.

 

@ Islander, Jubilees are out of the question - too big for me!  Also, my sources and other electronics are very good.  I'm running a Woo Audio WA5 300b SET (with Takatsuki 300b tubes), Berkley Alpha DAC, and Bryston BDP-1 digital audio player.

 

Saying this in the Klipsch forum may be heresy (pun intended), but I'm also considering Tekton Perfect SET speakers.  Definitely not as cool as the LSs, doesn't have the upgrade potential, or the support of long term enthusiasts on a cool forum, but they might be more plug and play.

 

Thanks again for helping me to think through this.  It is a fascinating hobby.

 

Well, rvnye, it looks like you're good to go with the La Scalas.  They're a bit pricey, but if you really like the cherry finish

[EDIT:  I just re-read your post and see that those cherry speakers are only one year old!  Why are you still sitting on the sofa?]

and they're in top condition, go get 'em!  Your sources and electronics are certainly worthy of them, so all you need to do is hook the speakers up and start exploring how your music library sounds through mint La Scala IIs.  That's about as plug and play as it gets.  Once you have them installed and have had time to get familiar with their sound, you can consider experimenting with their positioning, which is easier than you might think.

 

Many high end speakers sit on spikes, but La Scalas don't, since their heavy weight and generous depth let them sit very firmly on the floor, with little chance of front-to-rear micro-movement.  This makes them easier and safer to move around their starting positions than some skinny and tippy speakers.  They will need to be toed in to some degree, but that's a fun and rewarding thing to experiment with.  I recommend using a laser level to make sure that both speakers' positions match.  Keep in mind that there's no ultimate or perfect position, and that your preferences may change over time, or as your mood varies, so you can use this as a way of seasoning how your LS IIs sound.

 

Finally, the cherry finish might go over better than other colours with anyone who shares your living space, and the other thing is that La Scalas appear to shrink over time, especially the black ones.  At first they're huge, then they're pretty big, then they eventually become part of the room.  After all, there was a time when a piano could be found in most living rooms, and a piano is way bigger than a pair of La Scalas.

 

[rvnye]

@Islander, you convinced me, I got off the couch and bought the LSIIs, cherry, made in July, 2018 for $4k even, delivered and set up. I'll take delivery next week. Looking forward to hearing them. Thanks to everyone for your help. Now I'm going to review the thread on bi/tri amping with DSP delay, filters and PEq. 

Richard 

[rvnye]

On 4/14/2020 at 4:23 PM, Chris A said:

Good DSP crossovers (in my experience) include:

 

Xilica XP series (usually the XP-4080), ElectroVoice DC-One, miniDSP "HD" series (2x4 HD, 4x10 HD are surprisingly good but a somewhat susceptible to common mode noise), Yamaha SP2060...

 

I would not buy the miniDSP 2x4 (that is--without the "HD"), dbx DriveRack (the lowest priced models), and Behringer.  Off-brands are also a risk for home hi-fi duty, but there are even less expensive DSP crossovers meant for auto duty that Dayton Audio puts out--that I wouldn't recommend for home hi-fi. For instance: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dsp-408-4x8-dsp-digital-signal-processor-for-home-and-car-audio--230-500.  I'd leave those out of the lineup of DSP candidates.

 

Your DSP crossover in the scheme of things should probably cost more than your preamp (without DACs), and probably on par with your amplifiers.  But note that I can get ICEpower amplifiers for ~$170 with box (unbalanced connections) that are really good.  So in the scheme of things (and all other things being equal...which they never are...), you should be looking at the cost of the DSP crossover being probably about the same expense as your DAC/preamp/processor (AVP).  Most of the time, you're going to be buying DSP crossovers new since the good ones are not usually available used. 

 

If I were going to set the schema for the relative cost rankings of your hi-fi components (and hold on to your hats):

 

1) loudspeakers (by far)...the more money you put here, the better the performance

2) DSP crossover

3) preamp/processor (but about the same as DSP crossover, and sometimes a little more than DSP)

4) amplifiers (including class D)

5) everything else...including DACs (if you go this route, which I don't...my DACs are in my pre/pro), turntables/phono preamps, disc players, etc., and room acoustic treatments (which can be largely DIY).

 

You should have a USB microphone (for convenience) and a Windows laptop or desktop computer with HDMI (which can be very inexpensive, and also prior versions of Windows than Win10). 

 

Cables can be extremely inexpensive if digital (HDMI, USB, S/PDIF, AES/EBU XLR). 

 

I always try to minimize the conversion to analog, because that's where the noise gets into the system and the real distortion and other signal degradation all reside.  So if using a two-channel DAC, you can output directly to a miniDSP 4x10 HD and bypass a conversion to analog out of the preamp---and directly connect to the DSP crossover via digital buses. Output from the DSP crossover is best if balanced connections--going to the amplifiers, but careful routing of power cables can reduce the common mode noise (60/120/180/240 Hz).

 

Chris

Chris, first of all, thank you very much for taking the time to respond with such detailed and clear information. I pulled the trigger on nearly new LSIIs that will be delivered in a few days.  I'll initially connect them to my Woo 300b Set Amp, but I know my curiosity will make it manditory to tri-amp them (quad with subs) with an active DSP. A few questions for you... 

 

1. I'm planning on using my Berkeley Alpha DAC as a preamp.  It has digital and balanced line outs. Would it be better in your opinion to use a Xilica XP4040 (or 8080) with line ins (and do 2 D-A conversions), or use a MiniDSP 4x10HD and use digital in?  Is the Dirac series better (DDRC-88A)?  The Berkeley DAC is very good quality with (digital) volume control. 

 

2.  I have a Rotel 6 X 50watt Amp with RCA inputs that I could use. Do you have a favorite cable you would recommend?  (XLR > RCA) 

 

Thanks again. I'm looking forward to this little project, learning something, and hearing the outcome! 

[Chris A]

Using the digital inputs of a miniDSP 4x10 HD is probably the one case where the analog inputs are as good as the digital (TOSLINK) inputs.  Here is a test report on its little brother--the 2x4 HD--where this was measured:  https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-and-minidsp-2x4-hd-dsp-and-dac.2674/

 

I think that the DDRC-88A has a little higher noise than the 4x10 HD, and it is more than double the price.  I've found that Dirac isn't what it's cracked up to be (more on that subject in another thread to come), so I really don't believe it's worth its added cost for the "apparent convenience".  You actually pay a price for using it in my experience--in terms of the resulting sound quality.

 

The Xilica XP-4080 and the miniDSP 4x10 HD will provide a similar sound quality, especially if the balanced connections are used on the output of the crossover to your power amplifiers.  I have a presets file that you can use, but note that you really need to measure using something like a UMIK-1 (available from Amazon or miniDSP for less than $100 USD) and REW to be able to dial everything in.  Send me a PM. 

 

I've successfully helped many others over the past few years to dial in their systems.  The process goes like this: you take a REW measurement of each loudspeaker with your calibrated microphone (one measurement per loudspeaker) and email to me. I send back presets that are (a) either typed into the miniDSP 4x10 HD inputs through its application, or (b) I send back a single Xilica .xdat preset file that is directly importable into the Xilica crossover (any model of Xilica).  You take follow up measurements of the results.  After 2-4 iterations spanning a few hours (it can take as little as a couple of hours), the La Scalas will be dialed into your room using your chosen amplifiers, etc.

 

Chris

[rvnye]

Thanks again for your help Chris. I had run across the Audioscience testing and review of the minidsp 2x4HD in an earlier search I did, but understand it more this time around. It's taking me a little time to absorb things. The test results weren't stellar. I think I am going with the Xilica xp-4x8 (for about $150 more I can get the 8x8 which would give me room to grow). 

 

The D-A converter on the Berkeley Alpha is very good, so I will use the balanced analog output to Xilica balanced input. Sadly, my Rotel 6 ch amp has unbalanced inputs, however my sub has a balanced input. I'll have to see what cables I have and order the rest. 

 

I'll PM and take you up on your offer to help dial in my system. It might be a few weeks as I get everything together. 

[rvnye]

Well, I bought the La Scala IIs and got them set up in my listening room.  WOW, what a huge sound stage!!  They do disappear, with very good imaging.

 

I like speakers that sound life-like.  I go to live performances often.  The dynamics and transients of live performances are incredible.  I have a nice 2 channel system so I can buy a "performance" for $15 or $20 and play it over and over instead of seeing it live (the drinks are cheaper too!).  So I'm looking for speakers that not only reproduce the timbre of instruments, but speakers that can reproduce that live performance feeling.  The imaging, dynamics and transients are very important to me.  The La Scalas replaced Tonian Labs TLD-1 Mk II SE speakers.  For the cost and size, those speakers are really great!  I thought I would possibly regret getting the LSIIs.  The Tonians have some peaks in the upper-low frequencies, and they weren't the best at loud rock (Lowther drivers).  They really excelled at vocals, and instruments that had a soundboard (like guitars, pianos and violins, etc.).

 

My first impressions of the La Scalas is that they have great dynamics, transients, great first row soundstage as well as reproducing the timbre of the sound accurately.  Where the Tonians did a little better was in the high frequencies (triangles, silkiness of violins).  My plan is to tri-amp the LSIIs with active crossovers so maybe that will help the highs.

 

What I like most about the LSIIs is that they make me feel like I'm in the front row next to the performers, and they have LOTS of power to turn it up and rock out!!

 

My Hsu sub blends pretty well with the LSIIs.  It's a non-ported sub.  Maybe because I'm driving the LSIIs with a 300b SET amp which doesn't have as much control over the bass as a SS amp.  I'm going to hook up a 50W SS amp (Rotel) today to do a little A-B comparison with the 300b SET.

 

If the rig sounds good with the Rotel SS amp, I'm planning on getting a Xilica XP-4080 to set the delays and pEQ the system/room.  I need to work on room treatment too.  I'll use the 6X50W Rotel amp to tri-amp the LSIIs.  I'm looking forward to seeing how that improves the sound.

 

Thanks to all who had input and shared their opinions and experience.  It's a great forum with a lot of friendly, helpful folks.

 

Richard

[pbphoto]

congrats!  they look great.  put a throw-rug down on that floor.

[Chris A]

7 minutes ago, rvnye said:

Where the Tonians did a little better was in the high frequencies (triangles, silkiness of violins).  My plan is to tri-amp the LSIIs with active crossovers so maybe that will help the highs.

Getting the tweeters time-aligned with the midrange horns and getting the phase flattened will definitely help in that area.

 

8 minutes ago, rvnye said:

My Hsu sub blends pretty well with the LSIIs.  It's a non-ported sub.

Getting the sub time-aligned and SPL flattened using the Xilica/REW/calibrated microphone will help here. 

 

10 minutes ago, rvnye said:

I need to work on room treatment too.

I'd recommend getting a UMIK-1 (or equivalent) calibrated microphone (if you don't already have one) and getting some measurements in-room.  That will help you estimate how much absorption is needed. 

 

Adding diffusion panels is always good, but the question is always "how much diffusion is needed to control the specular reflections around the loudspeakers?".  Using REW's spectrograms and filtered impulse response (IR) plots will help you see where the problem frequencies are.  However, if you've got the money--more is always better...

 

 

 

https://magnetophon.nl/sounds/SomaAge/SomaAge_BridcharBlues_small.mp4

 

13 minutes ago, rvnye said:

It's a great forum with a lot of friendly, helpful folks.

That's why I stick around, too. 

 

Enjoy!

 

Chris

[MechEngVic]

7 hours ago, Chris A said:

Now where's that stack of pallets I left laying around...?

[Panelhead]

On 4/23/2020 at 1:13 PM, rvnye said:

  Where the Tonians did a little better was in the high frequencies (triangles, silkiness of violins).  My plan is to tri-amp the LSIIs with active crossovers so maybe that will help the highs.

 

Richard

 

  Good choice. Great speakers. After mine were played a bit the highs were not up to the mids and bass or my tastes. Tried a couple amps. 

  DaveA made some walnut horns especially for LSII. Uses B&C DE120 compression driver. Replacing the K77 with this combo was drop in. 

   Much smoother and extended. Definite improvement.

  When Klipsch updated the La Scala to AL5 the main change was replacing the horn and compression driver. Roy also must have felt the tweeter needed updating.

  The factory passive crossover is very good in the LSII. Much improved parts compared to the earlier La Scala’s. Going active should yield benefits. But what you have now is not broken.

  

On 4/23/2020 at 1:13 PM, rvnye said: