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My First venture into large format. Looking for ideas.


Cornwalled

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Hello all,

I've had a bunch of musical instrument cabs hanging around.  In my lockdown boredom I got the idea that I might be able to combine them and make a big system.  It was never really intended as something serious; more just something to relieve the boredom.

 

Well, as it turns out, I think I'm onto something.  The insane power and total dynamic freedom is addicting.   However, the current setup is pretty ad-hoc and certainly not laid out right at all.  I'm looking to take it to the next level.

 

Here's the setup so far:

Sub: Tuba HT (Dayton Reference 12" 4 ohm) LPF @ 100 Hz  - Powered by Crest V450 Bridged- 650 W

LF: Pair of Acoustic 301 Electric Bass Cabinets (W-Bin with Cerwin Vega 18")  up to 100 Hz - Powered by Parasound HCA-800 II

MF: Electro-Voice TL 2x12 with EVM-12L Series II 100 Hz to 1 kHz - Powered by Peavey M-2600 Mark V

HF: 1979 Heresies positioned upside down- 1 kHz  and up - Powered by another Parasound HCA-800 II

 

I have a DBX Driverack for 3-way crossover duties, and the Tuba is running off the LFE signal from my Integra AVR.  I'm currently missing a few XLR cables, so I have a Rane analog X-over pinch hitting because that's 1/4" in/out instead.

 

Please pardon the layout, this was just supposed to be an experiment.  If I commit to this, I will move the TV stand to the side of the room so the speakers no longer block the equipment, etc.

 

Here's a few things I'm thinking about:

1. Replace the Heresies with an actual horn.  I don't have any large format horns or drivers, so these are just pinch hitting.  I have to say though, they really sound great.

2. Replace the Acoustic 301s with something more appropriate.  (Possibly the Peavey FH-2s I mentioned in the subwoofer section).

3. Replace the EV cabs with a pair of Peavey horns with 12" drivers from Claude.  I don't know the models, so I included a couple pics he sent me.  As I understand it, it's a pretty serious machine.  That said, I don't feel like my EVs are a slouch.  Thoughts?

4. Eventually replace my Crest V450 with an amp without a fan, though the fan noise really isn't bad.  Thinking possibly Crown DriveCore series?

 

I'm looking for recommendations for HF horn/drivers, as well as any thoughts on the other speakers.  I talked to ClaudeJ1 for a while yesterday, and he mentioned the B&C DE250, which does seem to have many good reviews.  I don't need anything insanely high powered, as I'll be lucky to use a few watts in my room.

 

One concern is how I would go about housing the MF and HF horns.  One approach would be to have someone build a simple box for them.  Another thought would be to do a metal system ala Avant-Garde, though I don't know any metalworkers.

 

Anyway, this is getting way too long.  What are your thoughts?  Any advice would be appreciated.

Speaker stacks resized.jpg

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For what it is worth I would not try to cobble together such disparate parts. Far easier to sell off the stuff and start with a purpose and plan with combinations others have used with success.

 A pure horn system is capable of ruling the Universe however. That driver is as big as a basket ball. What is it?

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I think Sir Dave has a good point but, I don't know anything about most of that stuff to give much guidance.

 

That said, it looks like you have a lot of moving parts there, do you use them all together or are they setup differently?

 

If you sit/listen directly on axis, you might toss the K510 in there or, if you have appropriate pockets and room size, a pair of 402's.

 

I have a 510 that you could borrow and try for while.  I also have a K-69 (A) if I recall that I could mount to it so it would be ready.  Who knows, perhaps a splash of International (Harverster) red would pop out in there!

 

 

510 floor.jpg

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Hi Coytee,

Yeah, there's definitely a lot going on!  It looks like it would sound horrendous, but believe it or not it actually sounds rather good.  It just looks hideous..lol.  With the Rane crossover, everything is running it it's optimal range.  I appreciate you offering to loan me the K-510 and K69.  Funny you mention IH red.  We've had a 1955 Farmall Cub here on the farm for many  years.

 

One issue I'm becoming increasingly aware of is an occasional prominence of the lower midrange.  Dialing in the EV cabs is really tricky.  Too much and they seem to take off around 600-700 Hz.  Too lean and it sounds like a smile curve eq.  I guess it's like anything, you have to have it dialed in just right.  I'm wondering if the dispersion of a 2x12 is better suited to a long throw application vs. short.  If that's the case, a horn may be a better match.  So far, I've gotten the best sound by not towing the EV cabs in as much as the Heresies.

 

Today's job is to reposition everything so I can get the speakers closer to the front wall and get the equipment out where I can see it.  Then I'll dial everything in again and go from there.

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I forgot to post this, but everything is in place properly now.  As you can see, the Heresies just clear the sloping wall.  So, I think the first thing is to get ahold of a

set of HF horns and drivers.  I'm thinking something that can crossover around 1200 Hz with a 24 db/octave butterworth filter.  Hoping to be around $400 or less for the set.

 

I'm becoming more aware of what Dave A said.  Things just aren't really jiving at the moment.  While it does get louder than all get out,  the sound isn't what I'd call ideal.  The Acoustic 301 LF cabs are muddy and the EV cabs are too wide for this room so the dispersion is odd.

 

I'm thinking it may indeed be best to start over.  Just not really sure where to begin.  😵

 

Any recommendations would definitely be appreciated.  It's tempting to want to just go with a single box solution plus the Tuba and call it a day.  I'm sure there's plenty of options out there.

 

Coytee,

I'm curious to know more about the K-510 and K-69.  Are they from one an all in one PA speaker?  If so, are they hard to find?

Theater resized.jpg

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On 4/23/2020 at 9:36 PM, Cornwalled said:

 

I'm curious to know more about the K-510 and K-69.  Are they from one an all in one PA speaker?  If so, are they hard to find?

 

My apologies, I'm just now seeing this.

 

The assembly of which I speak, is the tweeter assembly (horn plus driver) for the 3-way Jubilee as well as some other formulations.  All I have is the raw horn (red, above) and one of the K69 drivers that I received with my purchase of the Jubilee's and the K69 was attached to the 402.  Once I got the TAD drivers, the K69's became extras and are sitting in a closet.

 

I don't know that they're hard to find but I don't expect you can "simply" go look on Ebay and find them.  They do come up from time to time.

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  • 3 weeks later...

From my experience, most musical instrument amplifiers and particularly speakers do not translate well to "high fidelity". They are purposely "colored" to create a sound to the liking of the musicians using them, an extension of their electric instrument so to speak.

 

As a bass player, and having owned Acoustic 360/301, I can tell you this:

 

First of all the 301 is a long-throw folded horn. You really need to get back 20, 30 feet or more to really hear what this cab is putting out.

Second, I notice you are using them as bass speakers - up to 100Hz. Not good. The reality is these cabs have a cut-off around 80-100Hz - right where you put the crossover.

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On 4/21/2020 at 10:16 AM, Cornwalled said:

Hi Coytee,

Yeah, there's definitely a lot going on!  It looks like it would sound horrendous, but believe it or not it actually sounds rather good.  It just looks hideous..lol.  With the Rane crossover, everything is running it it's optimal range.  I appreciate you offering to loan me the K-510 and K69.  Funny you mention IH red.  We've had a 1955 Farmall Cub here on the farm for many  years.

 

One issue I'm becoming increasingly aware of is an occasional prominence of the lower midrange.  Dialing in the EV cabs is really tricky.  Too much and they seem to take off around 600-700 Hz.  Too lean and it sounds like a smile curve eq.  I guess it's like anything, you have to have it dialed in just right.  I'm wondering if the dispersion of a 2x12 is better suited to a long throw application vs. short.  If that's the case, a horn may be a better match.  So far, I've gotten the best sound by not towing the EV cabs in as much as the Heresies.

 

Today's job is to reposition everything so I can get the speakers closer to the front wall and get the equipment out where I can see it.  Then I'll dial everything in again and go from there.

 

"Too lean and it sounds like a smile curve eq.  I guess it's like anything, you have to have it dialed in just right."

 

That's because they were designed for electric bass (guitar). A lot of bass players use a "scooped" midrange, especially nowadays. It's almost a requirement for the modern "slap and pop" sound.

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I agree with the previous commenters.  This is a situation where it pays, in time, money, and satisfaction, to do some thinking, some researching, more thinking, then some planning, all before you spend any money.

 

The simplest, but not the cheapest, way to go with a simple (sort of) setup is to buy a pair of Jubilees, plus the electronics to EQ and drive them.  That way, you have a factory- and customer-tested combination, with quite a bit of factory and customer experience, which can save you a lot of time, money, and guesswork when trying to put together a great system that you’ll enjoy for decades.  Lots of lessons have been learned, so you wouldn’t be reinventing the wheel, and be more likely to get it right the first time.

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