Jump to content
The Klipsch Audio Community
secretplayer

If I get Klipschorn AK6 - What sub and why?

Recommended Posts

If I choose to buy a pair of the Klipschorn AK6 - which sub(s) new or used should I consider, and why?

 

I am a confessed audiophile now owning VMPS IIa/R - Special Edition speakers now.

 

Naturally I will try the 1812 immediately - and then the Firebird.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, secretplayer said:

...which sub(s) new or used should I consider, and why?

Horn loaded subs having a -3 dB roll-off point (half space) below 20 Hz, assuming that you've got a reasonable sized listening room. 

 

It's just a suggestion but I would also recommend taking a look at Jubilees as alternatives to the Khorns.  The Jubilees are time-aligned using DSP, while the Khorns aren't.  This might be important vis-à-vis what you're listening to currently.

 

Chris

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, Chris.

 

I value your, Tom's, and Coytee's council and thoughts on all things Klipsch. 

 

Always have preferred the fundamentals over the harmonics - especially when the harmonics are artifacts of the chain. Speakers are always a major part of the usually suspects list.

 

... and the time alignment is certainly critical if it can be done elegantly. I anticipate the Jubilees (recommended model and factory appearance options?) would shine there given my VMPS experiences.

 

Repeated trips down the 'absolute phase' rabbit hole still nets a difference when listening with my current giants. Brian was right there.

 

My bass concern is for any losses I would PERCEIVE in that bottom octave.

 

Bottom octave - Babbitt octave. I live there a lot. Its a Detroit thing.

 

War stories available regarding the use of the below MCM pic during a Hope visit from the late 70's. Disco / Ice Arena. Array of a stereo pair netted adjacent masonry wall defections.

 

NOT for home use (or me).

 

If I determine the still need a sub (with AK6 or Jub) - which one and why (all posting readers too)?

 

Thanks -

 

SP

klipsch JFR025.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, You COULD go with several, .................

I happen to know of a subwoofer(s) that should sound familiar to you, if you can find them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A pair of Velodyne Servo 15's or 18's as they are clean, smooth and deliver undistorted bass into the teens with "0" boom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a much better index.  I'd go with a tapped horn, bandpass horn or front-loaded horn:  https://data-bass.com/#/systems?sort=style%3A1%2Cmfr%3A-1%2Cname%3A-1&_k=z6elx1

 

I use dual TH-SPUDs (DIY version).  More than one sub in-room is recommended.

 

Chris

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris - link looks interesting but attempt to reach it netted:

 

Online Threat Prevention

We blocked this phishing page for your protection: https://data-bass.com/ Accessed by: brave.exe
 
SP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Chris A said:

This is a much better index.  I'd go with a tapped horn, bandpass horn or front-loaded horn:  https://data-bass.com/#/systems?sort=style%3A1%2Cmfr%3A-1%2Cname%3A-1&_k=z6elx1

 

I use dual TH-SPUDs (DIY version).  More than one sub in-room is recommended.

 

Chris

 

^^^^^^  I agree with Chris.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, secretplayer said:

Chris - link looks interesting but attempt to reach it netted:

 

Online Threat Prevention

We blocked this phishing page for your protection: https://data-bass.com/ Accessed by: brave.exe
 
SP

 

 

I connected by clicking on your link, first try. Good info on that website.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/2/2020 at 8:20 AM, secretplayer said:

Thanks, Chris.

 

I value your, Tom's, and Coytee's council and thoughts on all things Klipsch. 

 

Always have preferred the fundamentals over the harmonics - especially when the harmonics are artifacts of the chain. Speakers are always a major part of the usually suspects list.

 

... and the time alignment is certainly critical if it can be done elegantly. I anticipate the Jubilees (recommended model and factory appearance options?) would shine there given my VMPS experiences.

 

Repeated trips down the 'absolute phase' rabbit hole still nets a difference when listening with my current giants. Brian was right there.

 

My bass concern is for any losses I would PERCEIVE in that bottom octave.

 

Bottom octave - Babbitt octave. I live there a lot. Its a Detroit thing.

 

War stories available regarding the use of the below MCM pic during a Hope visit from the late 70's. Disco / Ice Arena. Array of a stereo pair netted adjacent masonry wall defections.

 

NOT for home use (or me).

 

If I determine the still need a sub (with AK6 or Jub) - which one and why (all posting readers too)?

 

Thanks -

 

SP

klipsch JFR025.jpg

A KPT-1802 if it will fit through your front door and then in your space. Never heard anything like it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

A KPT-1802 if it will fit through your front door and then in your space. Never heard anything like it.

True, it's a horn loaded vented sub, first ever designed, so it was patented. 

 

VERY close is what was made for a short time the 1502, same exact design a few inches smaller and total output is 3db less at full volume. There are (I think) a couple left at the dealer ran by Cory here on the forum who lives in KY. I think they only come unfinished, if he still has any, if not Klipsch sells the 1802. 

 

I have the 1502 and it is the best sub I have ever heard right along with the 1802, great sound, very low distortion and no shortage of output. A perfect match for horn loaded mains and very musical, and for movies it can rattle a house. My wife and I honestly love this thing.  

 

The mains are not far off of what you had in the picture, MWM's but a 402 top horn, active crossover and bi-amped, with this sub it's amazing. IMO

 

NOW it's not small, this is the 1502, the 1802 is 2"-3" bigger in each direction.

 

For size comparison that is a 65"Tv.

house sub.JPG

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:


The KPT-1802-HLS is a “ Horn-Loaded vented cabinet design “   Not a horn loaded tapped sub which is a very different design.


https://www.klipsch.com/pro/cinema/cinema-subwoofers

 

miketn

Yes, my mistake, vented is correct.

I said the wrong thing, I was once corrected by Roy because the first time he explained it to me I called it ported, and he quickly corrected me. No not ported but vented, don't know why I called it tapped ?

 

Had to go back and correct it, Thank You, there is enough wrong info out there already don't want to add to it.

 

Still the best sub I have heard

 

.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem of course is that few people want to have friends and neighbors in their house currently, much less someone that they haven't met before.  SARS-CoV-2 is a real concern that isn't going away anytime soon--with no date on the horizon when effective medical interventions will arrive. 

 

Note that I bought my Jubilees in mid-December 2007 without first hearing them, and I have loved listening to them everyday since.  They're the best things that I've ever bought.

 

A horn loaded subwoofer is a horn loaded subwoofer.  Once it's dialed in, it should provide the needed output below ~31 Hz (the nominal cutoff frequency of well-set-up Jubilees).  Those frequencies are pretty much below the frequency of audibility (i.e., below 25 Hz), so all you're doing in auditioning a 1802 is confirming that they'll shake the house.  They will--you can bet on it.

 

Chris

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A different perspective from some of the earlier recommendations .....

 

What is it that you are looking for 1) smoothness in the low frequency regions or 2) insane low frequency extension? These two desires will run into the realities (constraints) of a) Mr "Wallet" and b) Mr "how  space is in your living room". They always ruin the fun don't they. 

 

In my view, and this is a personal opinion and dictated by the two gentlemen (a & b) and the two goals (1 & 2). At the end of day, well-positioned bass bins (the Klipsch Jubilees in particular) will solve many problems and when listening to music, and  augmenting with a subwoofer may not be necessary. If the goal is for home theater reproduction, then a subwoofer(s) is required (and a great deal of fun). 

 

So let's imagine a subwoofer is required. Again the two goals (1 & 2) must be considered (which one  is more important) and the two gentlemen (a & b) must be listened to. If you want "smoothness in the lower octaves", this is best achieved with careful placement of at least two and preferably three subwoofers (you are fighting and making alliances with room nodes and a single subwoofer will have difficulty creating a a smooth response). There is a nice discussion of this in  Toole's book and includes some good advice.  However, if sheer  and silly low frequency extension is demanded, then there is nothing better than a big subwoofer box. The Klipsch 1502 and 1802 vented designs are good examples. A alternative would be to choose from among the so called "tapped horn" designs ( are they really a "horn" ... it can be argued either way). Another alternative is simply a huge ported cabinet with at least a 15 inch driver. I tried this. Although I loved the sound, it did require a box volume (in my case a sonotube volume) of over 10 cubic feet. Common to these last three alternatives is that the box size ranges from large to stupid huge (remember Mr " how much space ..."). This will give you the low frequency extension, but remember goal #1 (smoothness). Now it looks like large to huge must now be multiplied by 2 or 3 times. At this point, Mr "Wallet" and Mr "How much space ...", are unanimous in their opposition.

 

IOW, if you want it all, then good luck ......

 

So I will ask again, how are you weighing the goals (1 & 2) and dealing with the constraints (a & b)?

 

Since I listen to music (no home theater) and have a realistic (IMHO) notion of how low they need to extend in frequency. Multiple huge subs are not part of my own solution. Your milage may vary.

 

Good luck,

-Tom

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ll add my experience to the question is a sub needed when reproducing music if you have Klipschorns or Jubilees?

 

I had based on past limited experiences  (up until adding the KPT-1502-HLS prototype into my Jubilee based system) believed a sub just wouldn’t improve reproduction significantly enough on music to invest the money and space it would take so I didn’t pursue the sub options.  Real experience has taught me lessons I didn’t expect considering I’ve owned the Jubilee since 2006 and Klipschorns from 1989 until they were replaced by the Jubs.

 

My lessons were:

(1st) It requires a very high quality performing subwoofer or I wouldn’t bother.

 
(2nd) Music Recordings can have real low frequency information that when reproduced through a system that reaches solidly down into the low 20s can add significantly to our perception of performers in a real space that gives you a sense of energized air along with venue size (from small to large venues) when captured on good recordings. Please do not underestimate the importance of this quality because it can amazingly transport you to the space the recordings intended you to experience and sometimes unexpectedly captured sounds like outside traffic noises, equipment noises, audience noises.... etc......  that occurred and add significantly to the natural realism experienced. This is easily demonstrated by turning the sub off and on once you have the system optimized.

 

(3rd) As much as I had tried placing the Jubs in their current room there was still persistent room mode (MUD Issues). I was excited to have the opportunity to acoustically drive the room at low frequencies from the Jubs running full range up front while also acoustically driving the low frequencies also from the back of the room with the KPT-1502-HLS and after some effort I found the setup that subdued the problem modes causing the “MUD Issues” and this was a major improvement that once experienced I would never willingly give up...!!! 

 

Bottom line for me is the KPT-1502-HLS prototype is the “vital foundation” of my system and isn’t optional for me after my experiences..!!!  👍🙂


High Quality all Horn Loaded System to below 20hz = “Sounds OK”

 

 

miketn

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike, combining Jubilees with a single quality subwoofer is an interesting proposition. Although the Jubilees will not have the low frequency extension of the sub, they do go pretty low (appreciable energy in the 30ish Hz range). When combined with a sub that goes to the 20ish Hz range, you are getting both the low frequency extension and (if set up properly) a smoothness in the output in the bottom couple of octaves (not unlike having 3 subwoofers that are energizing the room).  

 

When I got my sonotube subwoofer dialed in, I was quite pleased. However, I will also admit that dialing it in was a "2 steps forward and 1 step back" affair. IOW, it was not finalized in an afternoon. Did you have similar headaches?

 

-Tom

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

When I got my sonotube subwoofer dialed in, I was quite pleased. However, I will also admit that dialing it in was a "2 steps forward and 1 step back" affair. IOW, it was not finalized in an afternoon. Did you have similar headaches?


Yes it requires some experimenting for certain.  One of the benefits of adding the 1502 sub was it allowed me to pull the Jubs in from the front wall (without worrying about some loss to the low frequency extension) to a distance that would suppress their ability to excite some of the problem modes and this also increased the direct response and reduce/delay the indirect response in a beneficial way which increases clarity and imaging as you know.  Adding the sub then involved experimenting with crossover point/rate and level until I found the combination that summed the response at the listening area which eliminated the “Mudd Factor” from the problem modes.

 

miketn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mikebse2a3 said:

Bottom line for me is the KPT-1502-HLS prototype is the “vital foundation” of my system and isn’t optional for me after my experiences..!!!  👍🙂


High Quality all Horn Loaded System to below 20hz = “Sounds OK”

I know how you are about the details of what it takes to get the sound right and have wondered what you thought of the sub. I know it must have taken some fine tuning to make it blend together to make you decide weather you liked it or not but it sounds like you have decided.

 

Glad to hear this, mostly because I love it myself but do not have the experience, patience or ears you do to be positive there is no problem, so this makes me feel better. I had Bonehead listen with his CD and asked him to make some adjustments, he just looked at me and said what's wrong with it ?  I have come to know what "sounds OK" or "Eh it's alright" means.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...