La Scala AL5 What a Painful Experience

[richieb]

On 5/7/2020 at 11:55 AM, GlennyC said:

I’m probably just a rookie. I also have Lacewood Heresy IIIs, and RP-160Ms too. But room for no more!

No different than J E L L O - there’s always room 

[mikebse2a3]

9 hours ago, Docreid said:

interesting...my AL5s in Walnut were 10K at Music Direct.....

There was a price increase on most heritage models early on in 2019 and the LaScala AL5 was increased from 10k to 12k so depending on when a dealer bought and sold could be a factor.

[GlennyC]

New used amplifier. Sounds fantastic! Plus no detectable hiss during silent passages. 

[Srinath]

Sometimes the high $$ is sort of the point.

This is one of those threads I read every post.

I thought the Cornwall, lascalas, belles and Khorns were all plywood.

My Khorns have a glued wood top and lots of plywood in the bass bin - not sure if its all plywood - they are from 1986 and sure seems to have tons of plywood and edge glued wood.

[GlennyC]

So, I have a Behringer DEQ2496 sitting between my preamp and my amplifier. Last night I plugged a mic into it and ran the AUTOEQ function. Then with ROOM EQ WIZARD, I measured the room from my listening position. I got the following graph for frequency response (smoothed 1/3rd octave). I tried to manually change the EQ for 5K Hz and Above to 20K Hz, but it had no effect on the graphs at all. So, what am I seeing? Are the high frequency drivers of my La Scala AL5s letting me down? Thoughts?

[SWL]

So, I have a Behringer DEQ2496 sitting between my preamp and my amplifier. Last night I plugged a mic into it and ran the AUTOEQ function. Then with ROOM EQ WIZARD, I measured the room from my listening position. I got the following graph for frequency response (smoothed 1/3rd octave). I tried to manually change the EQ for 5K Hz and Above to 20K Hz, but it had no effect on the graphs at all. So, what am I seeing? Are the high frequency drivers of my La Scala AL5s letting me down? Thoughts?

I also use a DEQ2496.....only in the digital domain (using an external DAC). It's been well documented (tested) that the analog section of that unit is really bad. Really bad.

Digital section of it is very good. Very good. [emoji1303]



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[Chris A]

1 hour ago, GlennyC said:

So, what am I seeing? Are the high frequency drivers of my La Scala AL5s letting me down? Thoughts?

Where is your REW microphone located?  Is the REW microphone calibrated? Is there a separate calibration file that you input to correct for the REW microphone? 

 

Where is the DEQ2496 microphone located? Is there a separate calibration file for the DEQ2496 microphone?

 

This looks like what you'd see trying to use a DEQ2496 microphone that hasn't been calibrated, or perhaps you've got a "house curve" function on in the DEQ2496.  I don't recommend using pink noise auto EQ.  Instead, the upsweep measurement using REW with a calibrated microphone centered in front of the La Scala 40 inches from the front baffle, with a lot of absorption on the floor between the two, is the only way that I've found to get "ground truth".

 

Chris

[Dave A]

On 5/7/2020 at 8:08 PM, Islander said:

Hi!  I'm Pat, and I'm an audiophiliac.  It started with a pair of La Scalas, and I was happy.  Then, a few months later, I joined this Forum.  Well!  I soon had a pair of Heresey IIs as well,  then the next year I had another pair, and then a pair of Belles, and now a pair of La Scala IIs!  Then there were the modifications...  I can't help myself, so I have to trust in my higher power to help me to stop.  Maybe after the next subwoofer...

NO there is NO hope. I have a shop packed and getting more later this month and it is all big stuff. There is never enough. Good thing I have a set of pallet racks and a forklift.

[rvnye]

That's why I bought a pair of 2 year old LSIIs for $4,000 (in cherry).  No tax.  Would I rather have the new model, yes, but not for that amount of money.  That's just me.

 

I do see your point.  I suspect Klipsch doesn't sell many AL5s, so they probably don't make much money on them.  I suspect Klipsch makes much more money on the non-heritage products.

[garyrc]

To see clearly what is going on, after you take all of the advice from the people above, change your y axis so it has 5 dB demarcations, rather than 50 dB ones.  It won't look as pretty, but it will be much more informative. 

[babadono]

4 hours ago, garyrc said:

change your y axis so it has 5 dB demarcations, rather than 50 dB ones.

that there is some sage advice

Even earth from space looks like there is nothing going on from 1000 miles away.

[GlennyC]

OK, I am still running with the DEQ2496 between the preamp and the amp. I had it recapped with high end capacitors so it has been partially modded in the analog section. The speakers do sound better with the DEQ2496 on and equalizing. It is what it is. I A/B tested myself and one other person so far. With the DEQ2496 is the winner. Don't know what to say? Here is the latest ROOM EQ WIZARD graph. I am bumping up the range from 4500 to 18000 Hz by about 6 dB average. Please note I can't hear anything above about 11000 Hz because my hearing is not great there. SPL Meter is picking up the frequencies there and DEQ is showing source frequencies there when the RTA mode is displayed.

Edited May 24, 2020 by GlennyC

[GlennyC]

No DEQ2496...

[GlennyC]

No DEQ2496 But with Heresy IIIs instead of the La Scala AL5s...

[SWL]

I'd be interested to see a pic of your EQ curve. Show me yours and I'll show you mine.

I posted a pic of mine a while ago and a couple comments mentioned that something must be wrong. Something is wrong alright......LOL.

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[garyrc]

On 5/23/2020 at 7:06 AM, Chris A said:

... the upsweep measurement using REW with a calibrated microphone centered in front of the La Scala 40 inches from the front baffle, with a lot of absorption on the floor between the two, is the only way that I've found to get "ground truth".

 

• I think you should remeasure, following Chris A's advice (above), unless that's what you did, without telling us.🙂
• Here is what HI FI News and Record Review found, above 200 Hz.  Their technique could range from dreadful to superb.               Please note that the vertical graph grid line to the right of 10K is, in all probability 20K, and the one after that 30K, ending with 40 K.  IMO, the La Scala V should not be expected to respond above 20K, where it is 5 or 6 dB down, RE: 1K.  At about 17K it is flat, RE: 1K, which is more than enough for your ears and mine.   The overall graph, IMO, is 200Hz to 17KHz, 96dB to 104dB trough/peak, or +/- 4 dB, which is very good anywhere but in the advertising department.   Once again, more than smooth enough (IMO) given that there are more important characteristics than frequency response (Chris A listed them somewhere in a forum post). 

 

HiFi News and Record Review's conclusion: "It makes music a living, breathing, tactile entity that has you on the edge of your seat, transfixed."

 

• Does the Behringer use a calibrated mic?
• Does it use at least 3 mic positions?  Recommended by some in a real room. because moving the head (or the mic) a few inches can change the reading.  Audyssey XT32, for instance, uses 8 mic positions, and does a proprietary fuzzy logic central tendency thing with them.  I don't know what the top-of-the-line Dirac does, but people like it.

[GlennyC]

Thank you all for your feedback and help. The purpose of me doing the REW frequency response curve was because I could hear no sine waves out of my La Scala AL5s above 10k Hz. I don’t need calibrated microphones to tell me that. Or, do I have to position my ears 40 inches from the speakers with absorbing material on the floor. To test whether or not something is amiss with my La Scala AL5s in the 4500 plus Hz range I will simply substitute my Heresy IIIs for the La Scala AL5s playing sine waves at 500 Hz intervals above 4500 Hz using my own ears. If I can hear signals with my Heresy IIIs and can’t with my AL5s then I have a problem with my La Scala AL5s. I will do this with a younger (31 year old) person in the room. Again my concerns was the sharp drop off of sound at 4500 Hz (coincidentally this is where the crossover directs frequencies to the tweeter on the AL5). I will run this test tomorrow. The REW screen captures purpose was to show you what I am hearing and not hearing, not to open up a can of worms on the pitfalls of frequency response testing. Again, thanks a million for the feedback. I will update again late tomorrow. 

[GlennyC]

For what it’s worth, this is my curve for my Heresy IIIs after equalization...

[GlennyC]

So, here are my results of my comparison between the tweeters in the Heresy III and the La Scala AL5

 

Heresy III    La Scala AL5

dB                        dB                 Hz

64.8                    58.1            4000

66.6                    77.5            5000

67.3                    79.2            6000

66.3                    76.7            7000

77.2                    70.5            8000

63.7                    66.9            9000

59.9                    51.1           10000

51.4                    43.0           11000

59.4                    47.9           12000

59.1                    49.5           13000

61.2                    44.7           14000

59.5                    53.2           15000

               37.4                                 0

 

I am getting a significant drop off in SPL on the AL5s above 10000 Hz all things being equal except the speakers.

[Chris A]

If you can forward your La Scala .mdat measurement file from REW --taking the measurements from 20 Hz to 20 kHz first, then I can help you dial in your DEQ2496 a lot better to get flat response.  Send me a PM to get an email address to send the .mdat file to.

 

If you're taking the measurements at 1 m in front of the each loudspeaker with the microphone centered on the loudspeaker, and with a lot of absorption on the floor, then the results will be much better.  Trying to help you EQ using measurements only from 4 kHz-15 kHz will not produce useful results.

 

As far as what's going on with your tweeter(s), this forum isn't Klipsch customer service, unfortunately.  I'd recommend talking to someone at the Klipsch service center to see if there was a manufacturing error in the either the drivers or the crossover networks.  Since each La Scala is tested in the anechoic chamber in Hope before shipment, perhaps they will have the data that was collected during the QC measurements.

 

Chris