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angelaudio

Klipsch Heresy IV vs Heresy II

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You can control bias. Whisk members away during the night by blindfold and put earplugs in them.

Spin them around and put them on the plane. Exit the plane. Drive them to location. Now put gags on them. Remove earplugs and have a go at them with presentation, disguising voice. Afterwards, remove gags for open discussion on

topics. 

Then remove blindfolds.

You can say Klipsch now.

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30 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Simply put:  Bias is unavoidable when listening comparisons are not precisely volume-matched and blinded.

 

That is the absolute truth, and nobody is disputing it. What I am (and I suspect the others are) disputing is the need for such rigor in an informal listening session. Informal is all that it was. Informal is all that it was claimed to be. And yes, despite (or perhaps because of) the informality, we heard differences and we formed opinions based upon them. There were a lot of people there who know what to listen for, and how to at least be aware of the influences that you mention. These were not strangers picked randomly off the street.

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24 minutes ago, Edgar said:

 

That is the absolute truth, and nobody is disputing it. What I am (and I suspect the others are) disputing is the need for such rigor in an informal listening session. Informal is all that it was. Informal is all that it was claimed to be. And yes, despite (or perhaps because of) the informality, we heard differences and we formed opinions based upon them. There were a lot of people there who know what to listen for, and how to at least be aware of the influences that you mention. These were not strangers picked randomly off the street.

 

And what I am saying is since it lacked "such rigor" people should not be overly surprised and overly influenced by peoples' glowing account of how how much better the v. IV sounded.  Again, and for the reasons I've mentioned >1, I think such a glowing reaction was predictable.  

 

I DO look forward to hearing the v IV.  Meanwhile, I'm quite reminded of when Paradigm introduced it’s new Beryllium tweeter in it’s signature series, the buzz was “OMG, the Ber. Tweeter BLOWS the titanium tweeter version out of the water!!!”  I was then quite surprised that when I had the opportunity to compare them side-by-side, with volumes carefully matched, that the difference was FAR more subtle.  Ditto when Vandersteen upgraded the 3A to the 3A sig.  ..The diff was very very subtle.

 

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32 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Again, and for the reasons I've mentioned >1, I think such a glowing reaction was predictable.  

 

But there is an alternate possible explanation that you have not acknowledged: The IV really is that much better. Time will tell.

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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

 

But there is an alternate possible explanation that you have not acknowledged: The IV really is that much better. Time will tell.

We who were in attendance all know that but then we made the time and effort to find out. Where is your corroborating measured evidence for the CW3 ODS since the spoken word and opinions are not sufficient. That is a two way street.

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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

 

2 hours ago, ODS123 said:

Simply put:  Bias is unavoidable when listening comparisons are not precisely volume-matched and blinded.

 

That is the absolute truth, and nobody is disputing it. What I am (and I suspect the others are) disputing is the need for such rigor in an informal listening session. Informal is all that it was. Informal is all that it was claimed to be. And yes, despite (or perhaps because of) the informality, we heard differences and we formed opinions based upon them. There were a lot of people there who know what to listen for, and how to at least be aware of the influences that you mention. These were not strangers picked randomly off the street.

 


I have to disagree in that while volume matching never hurts it is not “always“ necessary and depends on what one is comparing/listening for.


I will give an example of the ability to determine an improvement that wasn’t dependent on exact volume matching being required.

 

The box resonate coloration of the Cornwall lll could easily be heard by myself when compared to the Cornwall lV. The resonant coloration is a part of the character of the Cornwall lll and is ever present when the recordings excite that region. Its experienced for me as a lack in detail/clarity as compared to the Cornwall lV. 

The Cornwall lV comes very close to the La Scala AL5 in lack of box coloration and this results in clarity more comparable to the La Scala as well in the low frequency region and for me that was easily heard.
 

IMHO ... The Cornwall lV sounds closer to the La Scala AL5 than it does the Cornwall lll except for the bass extension differences of the La Scala versus Cornwall.  
 

miketn

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3 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

The box resonate coloration of the Cornwall lll could easily be heard by myself when compared to the Cornwall lV. The resonant coloration is a part of the character of the Cornwall lll and is ever present when the recordings excite that region. Its experienced for me as a lack in detail/clarity as compared to the Cornwall lV. 

Out of the 100 plus sets of Klipsch I have bought and sold and fixed up the Cornwalls were the only ones I passed up because of the resonance problem. Twice I bought those and never again.They sounded like big boomy boxes to me and the complete lack of that irritating coloration on the CW4 was astounding.

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3 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

That’s your opinion. Those that know me know that I don’t play games. You believe what you want. I sleep wel at night knowing what I am trying to do. 

🖖🤜:emotion-46:

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3 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Those that know me know that I don’t play games.

Yea, don't get into a small fishing boat with him.....

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5 hours ago, ODS123 said:

Simply put:  Bias is unavoidable when listening comparisons are not precisely volume-matched and blinded.  I'm not suggesting you willfully misled people.  I am, however, pointing out that you didn't go far enough to control the influence of biases.  ..And you're in good company as ALL such invites by mfgs. to hear a new model probably are similar to yours.

What you are describing in ABX testing, which I was a part of when that Box was invented by a group of AES guys in Michigan. It is NOT used for speakers, because it's just too damn easy to tell the difference. It's better for testing 2 amplifiers, cables, pre-amps, etc. where the differences are subtle or non-existent, which is the whole point of the ABX's STATISTICAL output (12 of 16 trials).

 

Unless you spend a fortune on Blind testing of speakers, you will always have bias....................however you can always close your eyes................LOL.

 

I think an A/B switch is just fine and I don't believe in level super accurate level matching  ofspeakers as closely as what the ABX testing demands because A) it's not possible, and B) Relative Magnitude Sensitivity should be part of the deciding factor as well.

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2 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

I have to disagree in that while volume matching never hurts it is not “always“ necessary and depends on what one is comparing/listening for.

Totally agree with this.

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On 5/25/2020 at 2:35 PM, ODS123 said:

 

Curious to know...  When you compared the III's to the IV's:

 

Did Roy tell you what was improved on the IV?

  • Not until after we'd listened to several songs.

Were they carefully volume matched? 

  • Pretty well matched.  Not obviously mismatched, but I don't know how it was done.

Did you know which you were hearing at any given time?  ..Was this a blinded or sighted comparison?

  • Yes, we knew which speaker was playing and I was pulling for the La Scala II and bought Heresy IVs.

Did everyone hear everyone else's comments and observations?

  • They heard mine immediately when the Cornwall IVs came on! 

 

 

You must be like the Indian that washes with dirt and dries with water and walks backward, just to be contrary. 

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On 5/25/2020 at 4:12 PM, ODS123 said:

 

I have no idea what you're saying here, please expand.  Volume matching was just ONE issue I raised - what about the others?  ..Not the least of which is how being invited to Klipsch HQ is going to predispose someone to praise what they hear.  Do you not agree?

 

No.  We paid for a seminar on Klipsch engineering and history.  I did not like the H IIIs and got to hear some of my music on Cornwall IVs through a nice tube amp in the lecture room.  They are B.A. impressive.  Music just appears out of somewhere behind the grille.  You don't hear components and I could not locate the 3 drivers like I can with older Klipsch, like my H700s and H Is. 

 

My impression of the Klipschorn Jubilees is much different now that it was in 2001, too.  Based on the 2001 audition, I have been surprised at it's popularity around here. 

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Wow! you guys are pretty intense. Is it always like this? I usually just set up a set of speakers and listen to the differences and take notes. One thing I learned from listening to my setup is that I become familiar with the way it sounds and when something in the music train is changed, I can tell something is different. For example I used my .7 Maggies for three months before going back to the Heresy II and at first the Heresy took a bit of getting use to again, then I just fell in love with them again. I like them all but the Heresy are my favorite. They're tight, fast, open, airy, holographic as if the stage band is right in front of me live! The Maggies make the music seem more subdued, less real or live sounding, almost boring by comparison. I know there's a lot of discussion about the Cornwall which I've always been curious about in my room but the Heresy fill my room very nicely because it isn't that big. I have not heard a Cornwall in my room so I really can't comment. I think for me, from what I've gathered most from the reviews on youtube and online is the "context" of the subject. To me, that is the most important thing in my industry and I can tell when enthusiasts in my field get too carried away regarding new products. They  all too often haven't fully exploited the capabilities of what they already have. Certainly new products are very important to drive the audio industry and keep it pressing ahead and I'm sure that some products really are an improvement. I'm just not one of the consumers so quick to jump on the newer is better bandwagon. How is it better? In what specific way that is applicable to my specific settings and will I exploit them? In my field I'm extremely specific about what does what and newer is definitely not always as better as some would have them think. Still, I'm new to this whole audio thing, so who knows. 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, angelaudio said:

Wow! you guys are pretty intense. Is it always like this? 

 

 

 

 

You ain't seen nothing yet.

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18 minutes ago, angelaudio said:

Wow! you guys are pretty intense. Is it always like this? I usually just set up a set of speakers and listen to the differences and take notes. One thing I learned from listening to my setup is that I become familiar with the way it sounds and when something in the music train is changed, I can tell something is different. For example I used my .7 Maggies for three months before going back to the Heresy II and at first the Heresy took a bit of getting use to again, then I just fell in love with them again. I like them all but the Heresy are my favorite. They're tight, fast, open, airy, holographic as if the stage band is right in front of me live! The Maggies make the music seem more subdued, less real or live sounding, almost boring by comparison. I know there's a lot of discussion about the Cornwall which I've always been curious about in my room but the Heresy fill my room very nicely because it isn't that big. I have not heard a Cornwall in my room so I really can't comment. I think for me, from what I've gathered most from the reviews on youtube and online is the "context" of the subject. To me, that is the most important thing in my industry and I can tell when enthusiasts in my field get too carried away regarding new products. They  all too often haven't fully exploited the capabilities of what they already have. Certainly new products are very important to drive the audio industry and keep it pressing ahead and I'm sure that some products really are an improvement. I'm just not one of the consumers so quick to jump on the newer is better bandwagon. How is it better? In what specific way that is applicable to my specific settings and will I exploit them? In my field I'm extremely specific about what does what and newer is definitely not always as better as some would have them think. Still, I'm new to this whole audio thing, so who knows. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, really like my Heresy too.

Probably best not to overthink 

audio speakers. It is nice to understand yet,

It is not required to enjoy them.

And the music. Lest we forget

the music. All about the music.

If not the music then, you may find yourself on a speaker forum asking questions. Questioning things about speakers. And when you think you know enough, there is more. There is such a thing as mystique. If I know too much, what will happen to the seductive allure of the mysterious?

Enjoy!

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On 5/27/2020 at 10:57 AM, angelaudio said:

Wow! you guys are pretty intense. Is it always like this? I usually just set up a set of speakers and listen to the differences and take notes. One thing I learned from listening to my setup is that I become familiar with the way it sounds and when something in the music train is changed, I can tell something is different. For example I used my .7 Maggies for three months before going back to the Heresy II and at first the Heresy took a bit of getting use to again, then I just fell in love with them again. I like them all but the Heresy are my favorite. They're tight, fast, open, airy, holographic as if the stage band is right in front of me live! The Maggies make the music seem more subdued, less real or live sounding, almost boring by comparison. I know there's a lot of discussion about the Cornwall which I've always been curious about in my room but the Heresy fill my room very nicely because it isn't that big. I have not heard a Cornwall in my room so I really can't comment. I think for me, from what I've gathered most from the reviews on youtube and online is the "context" of the subject. To me, that is the most important thing in my industry and I can tell when enthusiasts in my field get too carried away regarding new products. They  all too often haven't fully exploited the capabilities of what they already have. Certainly new products are very important to drive the audio industry and keep it pressing ahead and I'm sure that some products really are an improvement. I'm just not one of the consumers so quick to jump on the newer is better bandwagon. How is it better? In what specific way that is applicable to my specific settings and will I exploit them? In my field I'm extremely specific about what does what and newer is definitely not always as better as some would have them think. Still, I'm new to this whole audio thing, so who knows. 

 

 

 

 

 

No, ODS is poking the bears. 

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On 5/27/2020 at 10:57 AM, angelaudio said:

Still, I'm new to this whole audio thing, so who knows. 

 

Welcome.  

 

Are you also new to this paragraph thing?  I would enjoy your well thought out post more if it were broken down into paragraphs.  Even though the word count doesn’t change, paragraphs make it visually less intimidating.

 

Comparing Maggies to Heresy is difficult, they’re so different.  IMO, the primary differences are the dipole delivery of Maggies compared to the focused dispersion of the Heresy horns, and the inefficiency of Maggies compared to the efficiency of Heresys.  

 

If forced to choose, I’ll take the efficient, dynamic, low distortion sound of Klipsch.  That’s not to say the I’ve not enjoyed, Maggies, Ohm Walsh, Quad electrostatics, or even Bose 901s, when properly powered and properly set up.  

 

NPR’s Texaco Opera Theater was spectacular from my early 901s suspended from the beams of my parents’ large family room and powered by a Dynaco ST400.  Nevertheless, I much prefer my Klipsch as my daily drivers.

 

You’ll quickly get a sense of who you’ll take seriously and who to ignore, but it’s all entertaining.

 

 

 

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Welcome.  Are you also new to this paragraph thing?  I would enjoy your well thought out post more if it were broken down into paragraphs.  Even though the word count doesn’t change, paragraphs make it visually less intimidating. Comparing Maggies to Heresy is difficult, they’re so different.  IMO, the primary differences are the dipole delivery of Maggies compared to the focused dispersion of the Heresy horns, and the inefficiency of Maggies compared to the efficiency of Heresys.  If forced to choose, I’ll take the efficient, dynamic, low distortion sound of Klipsch.  That’s not to say the I’ve not enjoyed, Maggies, Ohm Walsh, Quad electrostatics, or even Bose 901s, when properly powered and properly set up. NPR’s Texaco Opera Theater was spectacular from my early 901s suspended from the beams of my parents’ large family room and powered by a Dynaco ST400.  Nevertheless, I much prefer my Klipsch as my daily drivers. You’ll quickly get a sense of who you’ll take seriously and who to ignore, but it’s all entertaining.

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On 5/27/2020 at 9:57 AM, angelaudio said:

Wow! you guys are pretty intense. Is it always like this? I usually just set up a set of speakers and listen to the differences and take notes. One thing I learned from listening to my setup is that I become familiar with the way it sounds and when something in the music train is changed, I can tell something is different. For example I used my .7 Maggies for three months before going back to the Heresy II and at first the Heresy took a bit of getting use to again, then I just fell in love with them again. I like them all but the Heresy are my favorite. They're tight, fast, open, airy, holographic as if the stage band is right in front of me live! The Maggies make the music seem more subdued, less real or live sounding, almost boring by comparison. I know there's a lot of discussion about the Cornwall which I've always been curious about in my room but the Heresy fill my room very nicely because it isn't that big. I have not heard a Cornwall in my room so I really can't comment. I think for me, from what I've gathered most from the reviews on youtube and online is the "context" of the subject. To me, that is the most important thing in my industry and I can tell when enthusiasts in my field get too carried away regarding new products. They  all too often haven't fully exploited the capabilities of what they already have. Certainly new products are very important to drive the audio industry and keep it pressing ahead and I'm sure that some products really are an improvement. I'm just not one of the consumers so quick to jump on the newer is better bandwagon. How is it better? In what specific way that is applicable to my specific settings and will I exploit them? In my field I'm extremely specific about what does what and newer is definitely not always as better as some would have them think. Still, I'm new to this whole audio thing, so who knows. 

 

 

 

 

No it is not always like this. ODS123 gets going and tells everyone what to think and does so with self anointed  assurance that he is right in all things all the time even though much of what he talks about he has never listened too. He is a natural magnet for less than positive comments as a result..

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