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NEGOTIATING STRATEGIES and ETIQUETTE


DizRotus

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On 5/25/2020 at 1:24 AM, 314carpenter said:

I will walk away over >$25. Done so many times.

 

I believe you intended to indicate less $25, which would be indicated by <$25.  I always need to refresh my recollection regarding which way the chevron faces.  If my inference is correct, then I agree.  

 

Early on in my encore career I “fired” a customer due to a difference in negotiating philosophies.  IIRC, he was a buyer for Chrysler, so he was used to negotiating.  I got tired of, “Can you do any better?”  I told him, “I could give it to you, but then who will feed my family?”  After about a week he called back to “accept” the deal he had previously rejected.  I advised him that deal was no longer on the table. He was incredulous.

 

This thread is not offered to criticize any individual strategy, but to offer my take on the process.  It was prompted by my recent experience dealing with a customer’s desire for a “ballpark” estimate which allowed both sides to determine whether actual negotiations would be worthwhile.  Neither of us was being asked to make an “offer.”  A real offer was made and accepted only after we met and discussed specifics.  That meeting would not have occurred had we not first successfully addressed a budget.  If our customer had gotten offended by what he would have incorrectly interpreted as being asked to make an offer, it would have ended there.  We both would have lost.

 

Some enjoy the gamesmanship of negotiations, others do not.  My negotiating experience is based on many years as a prosecuting attorney negotiating plea deals with counsel for murderers and armed robbers, and decades defending medical malpractice cases.  The personalities and egos of many attorneys often  made negotiations acrimonious, so I learned to make every effort to look past that.  

 

I do not take offense if the seller of used speakers explores, no matter how clumsily, my budget.  I understand that by stating something like, “The most I’m willing to spend for speakers that exactly meet my expectations is $1,000,” is NOT being asked to make an offer.  No one is locked in by the process of exploring the budget range.  If that process offends someone, then a deal cannot be negotiated.

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When I sold my house, I knew exactly what it was worth. I asked the realtors to list it for that price, but they insisted on inflating the price by several percent.

 

The first offer was not only below the ask, but also below what the house was worth. I countered with price that it was actually worth.

 

The buyer countered with another low offer. I gave them a one-word answer: "No." 

 

My realtors and the buyer's realtors were all surprised by my response, but the buyer met my price. He knew what the house was worth, too.

 

 

Had the house been on the market for a few months, I would have had to figure that the house wasn't worth as much as I thought. But that's not how it played-out.

 

 

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I enjoy some negotiating and expect it and over the many years of buying/selling hifi gear it seems most others feel the same. I always build in a little “negotiating room” cause I know it’s coming. Just recently I bought two amps - one budget piece for background music only and another from a noted builder/brand. IMO both were priced fairly, one very much so, so I bought them at asking, I was satisfied. 
Just yesterday I sold a fairly expensive motorcycle and opted to negotiate my price which in this time of Covid made sense to me. Both buyer and seller always have a point of view on price/value/necessity. For me and the wife we hardly ever rode the bike long distances any more, only one short ride in over a year. And each year the bike is worth less, and then maybe a new battery, and so on. So we decided even at a negotiated price the money was best used elsewhere. Considering the options and today’s economy I actually was surprised at the close enough offer. So many don’t have $$,$$$ just lying around these days — 

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Perhaps I’m doing a poor job of articulating what I see as the difference between “qualifying” a potential buyer and the actual negotiating process.  In my example above, without a general agreement that the seller and buyer were in the same ballpark, there would not have been negations that resulted in a sale.

 

Whether widgets or Jubilees, I feel it is appropriate to establish a general agreement regarding the potential budget.  Without that, a buyer with a Heresy budget is wasting everyone’s time negotiating for Jubilees.  A potential buyer who is insulted by a perception that he/she is being asked to make an offer will miss out on what could have been a good opportunity.  Articulating your maximum budget for perfect speakers is NOT a legal offer.  If it demonstrates to the seller that you’re more than a tire kicker, you will get an opportunity to negotiate for real.  It’s likely you will then be able to explain to the seller the ways in which the speakers are less than ideal, therefore, not worth the maximum of your budget.  You and the seller, at least, have an opportunity to reach a mutually acceptable deal.  That opportunity is lost if the potential buyer is  insulted by a reasonable request to qualify the buyer; insulted by the opportunity to demonstrate that she/he is a serious buyer.

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The stated listing price should let the buyer know if the item is within their budget.

 

If I list a pair of speakers for $X then the prospective buyer needs to ready to spend  $X. I might be negotable in person or maybe not. It all depends on how the test drive goes.

 

It's the same when I'm buying a pair.  Sometimes I'll try to negotiate somewhat over the phone or emails but it's mostly to see if there is wiggle room.

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Though it has been quite a while since I listed anything here or anywhere for that matter, I always price my goods to sell them, not to negotiate.  Now negotiating is not out of the question but I do pretty extensive market research before pricing and always include bomb proof packing, Fed Ex shipping, and all fees included in the price stated.  Of maybe 100 items I have sold, only a handful of buyers ever asked for me to lower the price and some of those times were for a cash price in person.

 

Also, most of those transactions followed phone conversations where we both felt comfortable enough to go through with the deals.

 

Bill

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On 5/25/2020 at 11:01 AM, veloceleste said:

If you think you got a deal, you got a deal!

 

Exactly. When I sold for a living my happiest customers were not happy because they negotiated every dime out of the deal. In fact, those customers were almost always the least happy ones. The happiest customers I had were almost always the ones who saw that the value in the product was greater than the value of the money they paid. Regardless of the level of profit for me. Those sales are always win/win. Whether it is because I did a good job of building value, or because the customer perceived the value is debatable. What is almost without exception is the customer who feels like the deal was good, is happy. Those negotiations are always handled with respect.

 

Value is not binary. Take used heritage speakers for example. A spreadsheet may say that some Heresy 1's are valued at $400 (as an example). The value of that speaker to the seller and to the buyer may be completely different than the spreadsheet making it nothing more than a talking point. At the point in which the buyer sees the value of those speakers as equal too or greater than the sellers price, the spreadsheet no longer matters. 

 

I ran into this multiple times a day in the car business when people came in loaded with all the latest trade in values and invoice for whatever they wanted to purchase. Those numbers are not binary numbers. There are many MANY other factors to consider.

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There is a guy on AVS who moves through a lot of good quality gear and I like his style.  He will list an item for lets say  $1500 bucks, which is a decent buy.   It sits there for a week or two, then he will give it a bump and say, "OK, lets try $1400".  Maybe another week or two goes by,  a bump, "OK, lets try $1300".  Usually, after a few times of this, he finds his buyer and the item disappears.  He's not tied to a number, his interest is in moving it.  

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  • 1 month later...

Just to revisit this interesting thread...a long diatribe on issues in listing and attempting trades.

 

I am thinking of listing, on Canada Audio Mart, my Martin Logan Clarity (mains L/R) and Theater I (Center channel). Possibly to include a Velodyne DD10 sub.

 

For Klipsch friends akin say to a set of Heresy and maybe a RC64/504, and a good sub, all in very good to excellent used condition.

Unlike the Klipsch heritage line, ML replaces their lineup frequently. But it’s evolution akin to Heresy 1 to 4, not Heresy to Jubilee!  Finding equivalent gear to set a listing price is a bit tricky, especially in Canada.  The only Clarity and Theater I were in US sales forums. So if I take those prices and x FX, I come up with a completely unjustifiable Canadian price that I would have to deflate by about 1/3 to come close. So the research side is tricky.  Also, some  buyers can’t see value in a lineup that has been replaced with newer models, and want a direct price comparison in a market that simply doesn’t have the depth to provide that comparison.

 

I’ve tried a couple of trades... an example:

one fellow had a nice set of bookshelves but they weren’t worth (my sense of value) the combined price of the 3 ML speakers, which I originally offered and asked if he was interested in trade plus cash. He said yes. But then he balked when I made my first offer of the delta, hence cash he needed to anti up. So I offered a Velodyne DD10 sub in lieu of the Theater I.  Buddy immediately said, oh the Clarity don’t have any base! I researched his bookshelves and, well actually the Clarity dug a bit deeper than his gear. I noted this in a reply, nicely,  and I said I was just trying to offer value for value. Then he said he only listens to classical and doesn’t need any bass. Next he said ESLs all fail and gave a list of reasons. Ok, I asked if he had read ML’s admittedly biased technical literature and could he offer the source of verifiable failures on Clarity and Theater I. He stated it was well known. I offered that in three years of ownership the speakers had performed as advertised and he was welcome to a demo of length and breadth to assuage any concerns of current performance. He was not reciprocal in offering a demo of his gear and its perceived reliability.  Ok, lets move on to other pastures... he still hasn’t sold his gear, I haven’t listed mine.

 

My sense is trades are harder because agreeing to the value of a second set of gear is harder than agreeing on the value of cash, and it just muddies the water.

 

Anyhow, I am of the bent that I don’t like drawn out negotiations, one maybe two counter offers or we are wasting each other’s time.  In Covid times, when people are worried about jobs, I think my listing price will be very tight to a bottom line and my conditions will be crystal clear. And woe is me if I don’t sell them I’ll have to listen to some very nice ML speakers still.

 

Only sell something you would keep for yourself.

Always pay cash after an in person demonstration.

Be polite, and backup what you say with facts.

 

I’m almost certain I won’t sell the ML speakers!

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You’re on CAM, eh?

 

Here’s a sample of what you might expect:

 

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57354&start=75

 

Check Hifishark for pricing.

 

Good luck trying trying to explain the exchange rate to fellow CAMers though... 

 

And then, when you think the deal is agreed upon they’ll show up, audition it, say they’ll take it and ask “can you do any better on the price?”

 

Man, for your own sanity, state everything you can think of in your ad, like you said - “Conditions of sale” - you might include a working knowledge of the English language in there too, LOL!

 

And remember, a fair price only appeals to a fair person.

 

Expect the the first person to offer you half of what you’re asking within minutes of posting. That’s a re-seller, probably sitting at home collecting CERB while you’re at work...

 

And Covid has only made it worse.

 

Cheers to your journey! Better make it a double.

 

 

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@geoff. thanks, I use hifishark all the time as pointer to sales listings. Yes on CAM, so far only as a buyer, only one “remote” purchase which was a set of interconnects. 

 

Thanks for the note re, what to expect. I’ll be very clear on conditions and clear that price is firm and first contact will be by email so I don’t have to talk with low ballers. 

 

I bought the ML from CAMer in Calgary who is a millwright. He had built a very nice HT room. I got the low end gear, the higher end gear was gone in no time! I paid his list price for Theatre I and went back a couple of days later after some more emails and he gave me a very good deal on the Clarity and a Velodyne sub. 

 

I have tried trades for a mulit channel power power amp too, and it just doesn’t work again due to two sets of valuations. Seller was almost there ... he needed a ML Center channel but wanted a much lower end model and cash to buy a new power amp. Oh well.

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On 5/24/2020 at 2:54 PM, Thaddeus Smith said:

I start high knowing there will be some dickering, reductions over time,

 

I don't fk around when I'm the "SELLER", life's too short to be dickering for peanuts.....   I set the price, and that's it. If it sells great, if it doesn't, great. Win-Win

 

If I like you, I'll probably give it away.

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