jimjimbo Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 I mostly agree with John above with regard to moving them and a new crossover, but honestly I think you're going to have a hard time with the Forte performance in that room. I commend you for your effort on the acoustic treatment (which most people don't do), but I believe that there is too much there for your passives to perform properly. I would also guess that your subs are contributing to the problem. Have you listened without the subs engaged? I would not expect a "night and day" difference when you get the new crossovers because although they will be new caps, the electrical design will be the same as OEM. There will certainly be some difference, but most importantly, IMHO you need to get the room and setup figured out. I'll send you a PM with my phone later today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 John, will try that tonight thanks! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 jim 1 hour ago, jimjimbo said: I mostly agree with John above with regard to moving them and a new crossover, but honestly I think you're going to have a hard time with the Forte performance in that room. I commend you for your effort on the acoustic treatment (which most people don't do), but I believe that there is too much there for your passives to perform properly. I would also guess that your subs are contributing to the problem. Have you listened without the subs engaged? I would not expect a "night and day" difference when you get the new crossovers because although they will be new caps, the electrical design will be the same as OEM. There will certainly be some difference, but most importantly, IMHO you need to get the room and setup figured out. I'll send you a PM with my phone later today. I can pull the traps easily but they have made such a huge difference with everything else. Soundstage, bass clarity and imaging improved by an immense amount with the traps. I have been an audiophile most of my 68 years and I have never made as large of an improvement. The depth and sense of air I get with my other speakers is incredible.I am not using the subs and have not since I bought the Forte's. I figured that I should get a handle on them alone first. I look forward to talking! I will move them way back and pull the traps directly behind them tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Chi-town Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 hours ago, porsche987 said: John, will try that tonight thanks! Also, play with Toe in & No Toe in. I prefer No toe in in my environment. Or somewhere inbetween. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 18 hours ago, jimjimbo said: I mostly agree with John above with regard to moving them and a new crossover, but honestly I think you're going to have a hard time with the Forte performance in that room. I commend you for your effort on the acoustic treatment (which most people don't do), but I believe that there is too much there for your passives to perform properly. I would also guess that your subs are contributing to the problem. Have you listened without the subs engaged? I would not expect a "night and day" difference when you get the new crossovers because although they will be new caps, the electrical design will be the same as OEM. There will certainly be some difference, but most importantly, IMHO you need to get the room and setup figured out. I'll send you a PM with my phone later today. I either missed it or have not received your number. My email is tball@tredittire.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 1 minute ago, porsche987 said: I either missed it or have not received your number. My email is tball@tredittire.com sending you a PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Chi-town Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 20 hours ago, porsche987 said: John, will try that tonight thanks! How did the repositioning and playing with toe in work out? Any improvement? Regards, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 28 minutes ago, John Chi-town said: How did the repositioning and playing with toe in work out? Any improvement? Regards, John OK, I am a convert. Serious improvement when 12" from the wall and straight ahead. Bass is definitely better and no real compromise in imaging. All arid better. There still seems to be some resonance in the upper bass/lower mid. Just gets a bit muddy. BUT, I am very impressed and will assuredly look forward to the improvements the crossovers make. Also wondering of doing some damping to the cabinet with a no res type product? I will, no doubt, be moving up in the Klipsch line. I am just wondering how large an improvement can be had with either a Cornwall or LaScala? Hum, maybe some tubes too? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Chi-town Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 6 hours ago, porsche987 said: OK, I am a convert. Serious improvement when 12" from the wall and straight ahead. Bass is definitely better and no real compromise in imaging. All arid better. There still seems to be some resonance in the upper bass/lower mid. Just gets a bit muddy. BUT, I am very impressed and will assuredly look forward to the improvements the crossovers make. Also wondering of doing some damping to the cabinet with a no res type product? I will, no doubt, be moving up in the Klipsch line. I am just wondering how large an improvement can be had with either a Cornwall or LaScala? Hum, maybe some tubes too? Glad to hear you are on the right track! Hopefully the crossover rebuild will take away the muddy bass. The Ti tweeter will help smooth things out as well. Keep in mind Klipsch speakers overall are probably the most revealing simply by design. Garbage in, garbage out, from a recording perspective. Poorly mastered CD's etc. will really shine with all their glory through all Heritage designs. The forte line is considered among the best in the Heritage line in the sense of a well balanced speaker. Cornwall I-III, will have less midrange, but a more robust bass. LaScala, great mid and highs, but lacks bass. Think 1-2 subs in the mix with that route. I have owned my forte II since I unboxed them 28 years ago. The only Heritage that has come out since then that I would replace with is the new Cornwall IV. However they are $6K a pair. Will wait a couple years till they are available on used market for half or less. The new Cornwall IV INMHO is like a forte III on steroids. Finally gave it the larger mid range it needed for decades. INMHO, they stole Bob Crite's 3 way Cornscala design, more or less. Lol..... Remember as PWK stated we live in the mid-range. Regards, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 14 minutes ago, John Chi-town said: Glad to hear you are on the right track! Hopefully the crossover rebuild will take away the muddy bass. The Ti tweeter will help smooth things out as well. Keep in mind Klipsch speakers overall are probably the most revealing simply by design. Garbage in, garbage out, from a recording perspective. Poorly mastered CD's etc. will really shine with all their glory through all Heritage designs. The forte line is considered among the best in the Heritage line in the sense of a well balanced speaker. Cornwall I-III, will have less midrange, but a more robust bass. LaScala, great mid and highs, but lacks bass. Think 1-2 subs in the mix with that route. I have owned my forte II since I unboxed them 28 years ago. The only Heritage that has come out since then that I would replace with is the new Cornwall IV. However they are $6K a pair. Will wait a couple years till they are available on used market for half or less. The new Cornwall IV INMHO is like a forte III on steroids. Finally gave it the larger mid range it needed for decades. Remember as PWK stated we live in the mid-range. Regards, John I've listened now for a few hours and played with placement. Toe in, distance from back and side wall and while I am very impressed with the dynamics and the realism I continue tp have significant reservations about the low end. The deepest bass seems well articulated but the lower registers of the male voice and similar frequencies seem to either resonance or muddle the rest. Almost like a resonance. Hoping the crossovers, new gaskets, new tweeters will help. I also suspect that the cabinets have some distinct resonance. They certainly feel it tactically. I've ordered some no-res Nd dynamat thinking that may help. Perhaps dampening the cabinet and woofer frames could help? It is not my room not source material. I so want to hear both Cornwall IV's and LaScalas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 If I can tame or eradicate this low frequency issue I'd be onto something that would be incredible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Chi-town Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, porsche987 said: I've listened now for a few hours and played with placement. Toe in, distance from back and side wall and while I am very impressed with the dynamics and the realism I continue tp have significant reservations about the low end. The deepest bass seems well articulated but the lower registers of the male voice and similar frequencies seem to either resonance or muddle the rest. Almost like a resonance. Hoping the crossovers, new gaskets, new tweeters will help. I also suspect that the cabinets have some distinct resonance. They certainly feel it tactically. I've ordered some no-res Nd dynamat thinking that may help. Perhaps dampening the cabinet and woofer frames could help? It is not my room not source material. I so want to hear both Cornwall IV's and LaScalas Stupid question, but have you removed the speaker grills and checked to see that all screws holding horns and bass are tight, as well as the passive radiators? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 13, 2020 Author Share Posted June 13, 2020 13 hours ago, John Chi-town said: Stupid question, but have you removed the speaker grills and checked to see that all screws holding horns and bass are tight, as well as the passive radiators? John I did not check all but did a random check on both and they were all extremely tight. But, good question as the muddy or flabby range I am hearing could be easily explained as an air leak. I will research further this weekend and am hoping I get my crossovers and tweeters today. When I do I will fully disassemble check for any potential air leaks as well as do some internal damping of the cabinets and baskets. I still remain amazed that Klipsch uses stamped baskets! Just doesn't seem fitting of the cost of the finished product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 13, 2020 Author Share Posted June 13, 2020 3 hours ago, porsche987 said: I did not check all but did a random check on both and they were all extremely tight. But, good question as the muddy or flabby range I am hearing could be easily explained as an air leak. I will research further this weekend and am hoping I get my crossovers and tweeters today. When I do I will fully disassemble check for any potential air leaks as well as do some internal damping of the cabinets and baskets. I still remain amazed that Klipsch uses stamped baskets! Just doesn't seem fitting of the cost of the finished product. Checked all and less than an eight of a turn to some but not all. Listened again, moved around a bit and the problem is still there. Replaced with Wharfedale Linton and although they are warm sounding the problem goes away. Perplexing. Just an FYI the Lintons are smaller sounding, airer, much less dynamic although they are rated at 90db/spl at 4-6 ohms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikerodrig27 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Push in (gently) on the woofer, hold it in for a few seconds and let go. See how long it takes to go back to rest. This is essentially a measurement of how leaky the cabinet is. Common places that the speakers leak are the robber graumets where the speaker grill pegs go into (the are drilled through the baffle.), the surrounds delaminating from the cone or basket (not super common but it happened on my passives), screw holes, and maybe the gasket behind the speaker baskets where they mate to the cabinets (not super common from my experience.) I refoamed my passive radiators and put weather seal from H Depot for the gasket. Worked great. I found the graumets to replace some worn out ones on my speakers surprisingly in my hardware stash but they are available online. ALK Engineering has modified crossovers for the Forte I's and II's. He redesigned them to correct a few issues with the original design. There is a thread on it. I was talking to someone who mentioned the aftermarket Titanium tweeter diaphragms measured higher in distortion than the Klipsch titanium replacements. He is an engineer for Klipsch. klipsch part number is 12712. If I think of anything else I'll post it here. I am sure others on this forum will have more insight than I do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 I have checked both speakers for leaks and although I cannot detect any I believe they exist. Upon removing one woofer I noticed a folded gasket that was not fully enclosing the basket. Also found one loose grille fastener that could be removed easily. So, my plans now underway are to do the following; Seal all grille holes. Replace all gaskets with weatherstripping. Dampen the driver baskets and midrange horn with Dynamat. The woofer and passive baskets ring like a bell! Still cannot believe that speakers of this price do not have cast baskets. They appear to be quite cheap. Dampen the cabinets with 3/4 inch Sonic Barrier from PE. The cabinets have only one brace at the bottom, resonate like all get out and have to be a negative factor. Install Crites crossovers and tweeter diagrams. Perhaps create a brace of some kind to stiffen the cabinet. Hopefully will have all of this completed by weeks end and able to listen. My initial thoughts are the same. Wonderful dynamics, beautiful cabinets, realistic soundstage size and a certain palpability I have never experienced before in a home speaker. BUT, the lower midrange and upper bass are distinctly muddy lacking definition. When there is no content in these frequency ranges the definition is there but when notes play in those frequencies it definitely contaminates the clarity. The image depth is somewhat shallow and although I do get a sense of air in the recording I know there is much more there. By my somewhat experienced listening skills it certainly sounds like a resonance interfering with the rest of the sound. Hopefully my plans will diminish or eradicate this. I so very much want this to work as they do posses a certain magic that I find addictive. I look forward to hearing a near by member system of LaScala's! Thanks to all for your opinions an Dif you think I am going in a bad direction let me know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 I can see how the stamped baskets can 'ring' when in free air but I am curious. Since you will already have the passive & woofer out - place each face down on a flat surface to simulate being mounted. Using slight pressure pushed down on the magnet tap the stamped basket to see how much 'ringing' you get out of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 3 hours ago, Alexander said: I can see how the stamped baskets can 'ring' when in free air but I am curious. Since you will already have the passive & woofer out - place each face down on a flat surface to simulate being mounted. Using slight pressure pushed down on the magnet tap the stamped basket to see how much 'ringing' you get out of them. Yes they still ring certainly not as much but all of the drivers, horns included have a resonance. The damping compound works though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VDS Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Hi, I got a little confused reading replies, but you mention perhaps wanting to sell your Klipsh Forte’s? If so, I am interested. Please let me know if you are ready. Thank you, Ted Thompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche987 Posted June 25, 2020 Author Share Posted June 25, 2020 yes I am interested in selling. PM me and I will give you details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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