Help Needed: Klipschorns with Harsh Distortion

[garyrc]

Congrats!

 

Just out of curiosity, why were you originally running it at 4 Ohms?

 

 

[Mighty McIntosh]

25 minutes ago, garyrc said:

Just out of curiosity, why were you originally running it at 4 Ohms?

 

Read somewhere in here—something like, the Khorns were efficient enough for 4 ohms, and to try that first.

[Dave A]

Those crossovers are toast. Every one I have had my hands on with those old cans have ESR right straight through the roof. You replace those first and it will be the cheapest most effective remedial action/upgrade you can make.

On 6/13/2020 at 8:16 PM, PrestonTom said:

Unless the guy is exaggerating, Do you really think this is wiring, crossover rebuild, capacitors? For instance, capacitors that built up a series resistance are going to decrease the energy in the high frequencies, That decrease would hardly be described as sounding "shrill".

I can't speak for KHorn's much but I have had some really sour sounding speakers wake right up and sound good recapping. I don't use the expensive ones so trying this out is not going to break the bank. Dayton 1% tolerance works for me.

 

  Checking the wiring might solve the whole thing too. It would be nice if the OP had someone close by to help him trouble shoot who had been down this road before.

[fmalloy]

18 hours ago, Mighty McIntosh said:

 

The midrange is still pushy and brassy, but now this sounds like a characteristic of the speakers rather than like something is broken.

 

This is certainly what I experience with my Heresy IIIs on many recordings (not all). I got a Schiit Loki and the 2kHz knob is turned down to 9 o'clock, with the bass and mid-bass knobs touched up a bit for warmth. It's not a magic solution but its helped a lot. 

[D Jenson]

     My Khorns were purchased new, circa 2013 with new McIntosh C50 and MC302 amps.  The sales rep helping me with the setup said I really should use the 4 Ohm taps to get the best sound.  I went with what the sales rep recommended...for 7 years!  This year I switched to  8 Ohms.  I can't believe the significant improvement.  Everything,  low end to high end, more and better.  It was one of those jaw dropping improvements that does not happen often enough.  I did an air punch when I read about you changing from 4 to 8 Ohm settings.

      I also added Aurelex sound absorbing panels to the walls and ceilings around the Khorns.   That addition also made a significant improvement in sound.  I tend to listen at lower levels now because of increased clarity.  My tinnitus that would set in during sharp high pitch attacks happens less frequently now.  I was so impressed with the improvement, I pulled out all of my sharp high pitch recordings that gave me problems for years and played them again.  No ringing!!   The sound is very clear and crisp now with better bass as well.  I have lowered  the Sub settings and still have MORE bass than before adding the sound absorbing panels.  You may want to experiment with blankets and rugs to see if you find improvements.  If you like what you hear, you can get "real" treatments.  Good Luck and enjoy the journey!                                                                                                                                           

[artto]

For the most part, I think you've answered your own question Mighty Mc.

 

Most of the preceding answers are correct - replace the network caps or replace the networks, make sure the Mc240 are operating properly, use the 8 ohm taps, etc. but........................

 

You're never going to hear what those speakers can really sing like in that room under those conditions. The Heresy's sounded better to your ears for a reason.

 

You can't stuff an Allison aircraft motor into a Volkswagen and expect to get the same results as what it was designed for. Many times, less is more.

[Mighty McIntosh]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:25 PM, artto said:

You're never going to hear what those speakers can really sing like in that room under those conditions.

 

Maybe someday I'll have a bigger room, but for now the Klipschorns sing (or bellow) just fine: the sound quality is excellent if (probably) far from ideal, better for some kinds of music (Melody Gardot sounded like she was five feet from me).

 

All I want now is for my ears not to be boxed by trumpets and violins. Those high-midrange frequencies are still causing pain and fatigue.

 

I tried wrapping one of the squawkers with rope caulk (Mortite). I figured this would be a cheap experiment. And it was a quick one. Totally deadened the midrange, which sounded like it was being smothered by a pillow. Completely canceled all sonic air and space, and didn't help the upper midrange hyper-resonance one bit. Removed it immediately.

 

So, I think the next intervention up is something that many have already recommended: adding sound absorption to the room. Two things have deterred me from pursuing this:

1. Unlike rope caulk, sound panels are expensive.
2. It therefore makes sense to experiment with materials at hand before committing to a purchase -- as recommended, for example by D Jenson: "You may want to experiment with blankets and rugs to see if you find improvements.  If you like what you hear, you can get 'real' treatments." -- But I find myself utterly stupefied: How can I place blankets and rugs over the early reflection points on my walls and ceilings?

 

How have others done homemade tests of sound absorption on their walls and ceilings?

 

For room treatments, D Jenson mentioned Auralex, which would appear to cost hundreds of dollars. Are there other more economical yet effective possibilities?

 

Any guidance will be much appreciated.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Mighty McIntosh
Clarification

[OO1]

there is a limit on how much you can improve the sound ,  the components in the speakers are 44 years old , and time may have come where you need to change /update the crossovers-capacitors and the diaphragms in the midrange/tweeter as well as rotating the woofer 180 degrees -------the cost  is about 100$ for the crossovers capacitors and 300$ for the midrange, tweeters  parts   ------less than 500$ -

[codewritinfool]

For a time on my K-400's, I had leather bags full of sand laying on top of them.  To be honest, I didn't notice much of a difference, but easily done and easily reversible.  If the horn is resonating, you just want to deaden the resonance.  Some swear by the rope caulk, but deadening is deadening, and the bag of sand is a heck of a lot easier to remove.

 

I since changed out to tractrix-curve horns and like them better.  You can always move a tap on your autotransformer to drop the mids in level a bit.

 

I would bring a bunch of blankets, quilts, and pillows into the room and see what that does.   For my room, adding fire-retardant acoustic foam and a wall tapestry helped a bunch.

 

[artto]

44 minutes ago, Mighty McIntosh said:

 

 better for some kinds of music (Melody Gardot sounded like she was five feet from me).

 

But I find myself utterly stupefied: How can I place blankets and rugs over the early reflection points on my walls and ceilings?

 

For room treatments, D Jenson mentioned Auralex, which would appear to cost hundreds of dollars. Are there other more economical yet effective possibilities?

 

Any guidance will be much appreciated.

 

1) IMHO, Melody Gardot, Frank Sinatra, or whoever, shouldn't sound like they are five feet from you. Ultimately, for me at least, the idea of an excellent playback system is one that can "take you there", more so than put the singer/orchestra/band in your room. So, to me, what you appear to feel is a good thing is something I try to avoid, or at least take to another level. A lot of that is somewhat dependent on the recording. But, to each his own.

 

2) I went to a department store rug/carpet section and asked if they had any rug remnants I could have - for free.

The first thing you need to do is determine the early reflection points as they relate to both the speaker and your listening location. Have someone hold a small mirror against the wall & ceiling & move it around. When you can see the speaker in the mirror from your listening location, mark that location with a pencil. That is were you need to start experimenting with absorption or diffusion materials.

You can hang the rugs (or blankets or whatever) with small finishing nails or tacks as this will not be permanent yet. You could also make some cheap stands or panels that can be moved around - simply lay then against the wall for now.

 

3) You've mentioned the cost of "hundreds of dollars" for acoustical materials. In my experience, especially with Klipschorns, acoustical room treatments are one of the cheapest improvements you can make to improve the sound. And don't forget bass traps. Auralex makes something called MegaLNRD, large, triangular, fit in the corners - right on top of the Khorns if you like.

 

EDIT:

And get those caps or networks replaced!!!!!!!!!!!! I have the same year and model Khorns. My networks/caps don't look anywhere near that bad - but the Khorns are being used in my model railroad room now, not the listening room.

[artto]

Another thing I did - long ago - was put up curtain rods. I used floor to ceiling curtains, fairly heavy. You can then simply slide the curtains around for absorption until you find what works best. Curtains don't have to be used only for windows!!!

[D Jenson]

I have been away from my audio/video projects for most of the summer.  But it looks like I should jump in again.  If you are still mulling over your room treatments,  try putting pillows on top of your Khorns.  Have them extend a couple of inches over the front edge.  Play around a little with distances 1"- 3" etc.  Listen from your usual listening position after making changes.  I did that after someone gave the suggestion.  Then go find some 2x4s or in my case  modified golf clubs used for practice and place them on the side walls by your Khorns.  Just hang a blanket over the 2x4s or whatever you find.  It is an easy and interesting experiment to hear what a difference room treatments can make.  It is easy to remove the pillows to listen to what the sonic changes side wall treatments make by themselves.  I found the pillows on top made the most noticeable improvement in my situation.  I experimented to find out if everything the forum members were talking about was real.  Yup, trust these guys.  I'm a plug and play guy usually.  But reading what Chris A. writes and seeing artto's room treatments, I am in the slow process of finishing my room treatments AND am working towards adding a DSP unit and bi or triamping my Khorns.  After you finish your room treatments, there is the time alignment opportunity just waiting for you to address and ...

[Mighty McIntosh]

I am smelling defeat.

 

I experimented with some sound absorption panels, blankets and triple-layer curtains. The effect on the resonance in the room was definitely noticeable, but... how can I put it? -- the essential problem remained: at the safe-loud volume I'm accustomed to, the upper midrange is uncomfortable for my ears, making the speakers unpleasant and fatiguing to listen to. To the experimental room treatments I tried adding equalization remedies, such as decreasing midrange frequencies to a greater or lesser extent (typically 2.5 or 3 Db). With enough EQ to tame the midrange, the music sounded EQ'd, a definite degradation of the sound quality.

 

The reproduction quality of the midrange sounds accurate to me; I doubt there is any problem with the drivers -- unless there is such a driver problem as unbalanced forwardness. I have faith that what sounds to me like "unbalanced forwardness" is not the fault of the crossovers, b/c they are brand new AA's from Bob Crites.

 

This mid-forwardness impressionistically (by no means scientifically) feels related to a more subtle, nagging issue that persists: the KHorns -- in my small room -- don't quite sound musical. I'm aware that I'm hearing gigantic, awesome sounds in the bass, mid and treble, but there's some kind of missing cohesion, despite all the notes sounding perfectly in place. Noticing this reminded me of Artto's post:

 

On 7/18/2020 at 7:25 PM, artto said:

You're never going to hear what those speakers can really sing like in that room under those conditions. The Heresy's sounded better to your ears for a reason.

 

Having tried the KHorns in my room for the past month, I brought the Heresies back upstairs, pulled the KHorns out of their corners, and hooked up the Heresies in their place. For one thing, I wanted to make sure the problem isn't simply that my hearing has suddenly changed and that all the problems I've been hearing are literally in my head.

 

My hearing is still fine. The Heresies sounded wonderful. Smoother, beautiful detail. Through the KHorns I could make out all the details with perhaps even finer resolution than in the Heresies, but I had to listen for them; through the Heresies all the details were just there, all together, in one coherent, thrilling musical picture. I was even hearing some of the resonance of room with the Heresies that has been so prominent with the KHorns, but with the smaller Klipsch speakers those resonances were here-and-there peaks rather than stressful constants. The Heresies sound like they fit in the room. The constituent sounds played by the Klipschorns in my 10x15 den seem like they just don't have enough room to "marry" (to borrow a cooking term). This is something Chris A. told me so at the outset:

  

On 6/21/2020 at 11:55 AM, Chris A said:

I personally don't believe that you're going to get the Khorns into good listening shape for your room anytime soon even with significant refreshing of passive crossover network components and even perhaps the drivers themselves.  I'm actually sorry to say it, but I've heard the same issues with Khorns for years (including the Khorn clones I own and have significantly altered now).  Even with tri-amping, time aligning, and replacement of the tweeters and midranges (drivers and horns), there is still an issue for me listening to them in the small room…

 

I am on the brink of accepting that I might not be able (without selling my house) to keep the Klipschorns in my stereo system as a second heirloom to join the McIntosh 240 my father gave me when I was teenager, and which I still have, and will listen to until I'm deaf or dead.

 

If there is another measure that can be taken with a realistic hope for (what increasingly seems like a miracle of) beautiful Klipschorn sound in this little room, by all means lay it on me.

 

If, however, as Chris A. suggested --

  

On 6/21/2020 at 11:55 AM, Chris A said:

Based on your listening preferences and my experience with Khorns trying to get them to sound good on classical recordings, I'd recommend replacing them…

 

-- I turn my thoughts toward selling the KHorns and replacing them, I have other questions to put to the group about options. First of all, I would want to replace the KHorns rather than simply putting the Heresies back as is. Before getting the KHorns I was already yearning for more bass extension. So one question is: replace the KHorns with a new/used pair of speakers --

  

On 6/21/2020 at 11:55 AM, Chris A said:

…I'd recommend replacing them with a fully horn-loaded pair of Jubilees (biamped with active crossover) or Danley Synergies (with passive crossovers and good for mono-amping)--something in the SH-60 to SH-96 range, or the equivalent molded "SM" series Synergy horns having 60 degrees or greater of horizontal coverage.

 

-- or replace them with the Heresies somehow augmented -- for example with one or two subs -- e.g. Vandersteen 2wq? (Remember, I'm satisfied with everything about the Heresies except their bass extension.)

 

In either case, my budget for KHorn replacement would be strictly limited to whatever I can get for the KHorns with their new crossovers. My quick preliminary search turned up two recent sales of mid-1970s KHorns (mine are 1976), one pair for about $3,500 and one pair for I think $4,250. Please let me know what you think the market is like for these big beauties nowadays.

 

And, again, if you think there's something else to try, I have a little game left in me.

 

[Khornukopia]

39 minutes ago, Mighty McIntosh said:

 

And, again, if you think there's something else to try, I have a little game left in me

 

There are some suggestions earlier in this thread that your should inspect, test or substitute the rusty looking, 44 year old K-55 drivers. First thing I would have checked based on your complaint. What did you discover?  

[garyrc]

29 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:

test or substitute the rusty looking, 44 year old K-55 drivers

 

If they (K55s) were in an high humidity environment would the innards be damaged?  I don't know.  Speculations?

 

Just one more thing.  My old room was smaller than yours, and the Khorns sounded wonderful from the main listening position.  I had

4" thick professional (1" to 2" thicker than consumer grade) Sonex foam (shaped like anechoic wedges) covering almost the whole wall behind me.   Now the Khorns are in a > 4,000 cu. ft. room and sound better, but not spectacularly so -- the main advantage is a much wider listening area.

[ricktate]

Tighten the screws holding horn to motor board......go back to 8 ohm setting on amp.....check polarity again.....seal into corners.....check washer on mid horn I used an O-ring on mine..... get different amp if it still sounds wrong to you. If your close to one of us im sure we could bring over a HK430 ...dynaco st70 or something to try. Im from KCMO area.

[henry4841]

 

New to forum so late to thread. Very remote possibility anything wrong with drivers especially that the speakers came from Dad. Assume well taken care of and cherished for many years by Dad. Heresy's sound good which defies logic since as most know with horns bigger is better. K-horns have better horns than Heresy's. Crossovers brain of speaker system and are always suspect when problem with speakers. I suspect the problem may lie in position of horns comparing Heresy's with K-horns. Turn the K-horns up upside down with horns at bottom and see how it sounds and or put Heresy's at same level or on top of K-horns and compare. If problem persist forget about bass in experiment and turn the K-horns at a more 90 degrees from wall and see if problem persist. Keep rotating the speaker more like Heresy's and see the results. The room is a big part of the K-horn sound unlike LaScala's which have the same horns and bass speaker with an octave less  bass. I have LaScala's in roughly the same size room and have never experienced what you are describing. L-pads on the drivers may be another solution. Unlike equalization they only attenuate and do effect tone. Anyone with any amount of electronic background should be able to install them for you. Klipsch crossovers are one size fits all which is never the case. Anyways some things you can try before giving up on your excellent speakers. Possibly just not right for you room but I would not give up on them without a fight. 

[Mighty McIntosh]

7 hours ago, henry4841 said:

L-pads on the drivers may be another solution.

 

I looked up what L-pads are, and I am intrigued, b/c it looks like these regulate -- impedance? -- do I have that right? One measure so far that made a significant impact was changing from 4 ohms to the 8 ohm taps: BIG improvement from washy to focused sound. Is it possible L-pads could tame mid frequencies in the 1500-4000 Hz range?

[codewritinfool]

 
I looked up what L-pads are, and I am intrigued, b/c it looks like these regulate -- impedance? -- do I have that right? One measure so far that made a significant impact was changing from 4 ohms to the 8 ohm taps: BIG improvement from washy to focused sound. Is it possible L-pads could tame mid frequencies in the 1500-4000 Hz range?

An L-pad would allow you to attenuate the signal while not changing the impedance seen by the amplifier.

Yes, they could certainly help you with the squawker level if introduced at that point in the circuit.

Did you change the tap on the transformer yet? That would allow you to adjust it somewhat with the hardware you already have.

Maybe someone that knows more than I do will chime in here....

[MechEngVic]

6 hours ago, Mighty McIntosh said:

 

I looked up what L-pads are, and I am intrigued, b/c it looks like these regulate -- impedance? -- do I have that right? One measure so far that made a significant impact was changing from 4 ohms to the 8 ohm taps: BIG improvement from washy to focused sound. Is it possible L-pads could tame mid frequencies in the 1500-4000 Hz range?

Horns in general, and Klipsch horns in specific, tend to accentuate the frequencies between about 1500hz and 3500hz. That is what you're hearing as harshness. It's about the most common complaint about Klipsch speakers. It is a feature of horns, they naturally amplify those frequencies and PWK figured out that if you work carefully with that range, you can bring out a liveliness of sound that gives us the addictive midrange bloom that we all love, and why "the music lives in the midrange". It's a fine line and can become harsh with wear and tear combined with our aging ear sensitivities. Plus no speaker is perfect.

 

Using an L-pad on the mid horn would attenuate the horn's entire frequency range (around 800hz to 6khz I think). If you want to tune just the "harsh" range, you'll have to make changes that affect impedance (modifications to the impedance curve are like changing the volume of a specific frequency range). You want that. What you don't want to do is to change the frequency response curve, that will change the sound signature. You just want to drop that range down in volume a bit. You can do it using resistors of specific values along specific spots in the midrange circuit, either in series or parallel, or both. IMO, it's better than changing capacitor or inductor values. 

 

L-pads can definitely help get you in the neighborhood, but i'd use them temporarily as they are mostly lower quality.