Problem with Dayton caps?

[CECAA850]

1 hour ago, Edgar said:

 

The Zip Tie vendors describe that color as "natural".

I was hoping for neutral but this will have to do.

[Pete H]

I believe the big blobs of solder, compensate for the use of non recommended zip tie colors, but the shoehorn that will be used to get them back in the cabinet, well, that's another story entirely.  

[babadono]

On 8/12/2020 at 5:55 AM, Seadog said:

It is the Signstek MESR-100 V2.  They are around $70 on Amazon now.  It uses 100kHz to measure ESR.

 

It may be on the low end of the electronic measurement equipment spectrum, but I have used it successfully to sort through caps to identify the obviously failing or defective ones that went to the trash.  It also seems to discern slight differences within a lot of identical "good" caps, and it will do in-circuit testing for capacitance and ESR.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Signstek-MESR-100-Ranging-Circuit-Capacitor/dp/B00GYSFOM6

 

 

An ESR meter that measures at 100kHz for $70, Wow. Guess I should look for what's available more often

[CECAA850]

16 minutes ago, Pete H said:

I believe the big blobs of solder, compensate for the use of non recommended zip tie colors, but the shoehorn that will be used to get them back in the cabinet, well, that's another story entirely.  

Tons of room.  All I had to do was keep the build in the perimeter of the PCB.

[Edgar]

57 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

I was hoping for neutral but this will have to do.

 

For years Yamaha made "Natural Sound" amplifiers. As I remember, they were quite good.

[babadono]

41 minutes ago, Edgar said:

 

For years Yamaha made "Natural Sound" amplifiers. As I remember, they were quite good.

I still have a small 4 channel one of these for an old school 4 channel ambience/reverb system. Still have the DSP unit that goes with it as well. Nice little system with 4 small speakers in the corners for effects. Did require a noise gate/downward expander on each channel to keep noise down with no signal.

[Dave A]

20 hours ago, Deang said:

Workbench too clean and organized for serious work. I do like the padding though in case you have to bang your head.

And check out the totally spot free padding and nick/mar free table top. Almost like a photographer set up his idea of a perfect workbench except he had never worked on one to know what they really look like when used. 

[codewritinfool]

[Blvdre]

Ouch. That's going to leave a mark.

[CECAA850]

3 hours ago, Dave A said:

And check out the totally spot free padding and nick/mar free table top. Almost like a photographer set up his idea of a perfect workbench except he had never worked on one to know what they really look like when used. 

Table top is about a year old.  It's birch ply with 3 coats of Waterlox over 2x6's.  The pad is just a moving blanket from Harbor Freight. 

[ClaudeJ1]

On 8/11/2020 at 1:30 PM, CECAA850 said:

Interesting.  I wonder why no one has commented on it previously.   It wasn't a subtle difference.

Maybe the hundreds of people who have used Dayton caps SUCCESSFULLY did not have the EXACT same problem you did in an strange balancing network (meaning Non-KLIPSCH). Different is not the same, and you can't make what you can't measure because you will never know if you got it made or NOT.

[CECAA850]

15 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Maybe the hundreds of people who have used Dayton caps SUCCESSFULLY did not have the EXACT same problem you did

Well, there's already one person who said that they did.  I'm still thinking I got a bad cap.  Will get it measured next month as I've saved it.  As far as the "strange" network I have, it liked the Audyns just fine.

[ClaudeJ1]

16 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

Well, there's already one person who said that they did.  I'm still thinking I got a bad cap.  Will get it measured next month as I've saved it.  As far as the "strange" network I have, it liked the Audyns just fine.

Apples and elephants comparison, bad sample vs. good sample. Even with low part per million ratings, bad product gets through Quality Control once in a while. But hey

 

21 hours ago, Edgar said:

 

For years Yamaha made "Natural Sound" amplifiers. As I remember, they were quite good.

I have several of those. I agree.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

22 hours ago, babadono said:

An ESR meter that measures at 100kHz for $70, Wow. Guess I should look for what's available more often

Sold and on it's way.

[codewritinfool]

On 8/20/2020 at 10:56 AM, Deang said:

I do like the padding though in case you have to bang your head.

And the cap crimper in the back.  Not many people know that secret.

[Lbk]

Sorry for delay, I have BC'S caps in the upper section, keep the Dayton 68uf in woofer lower section. 

 

When installing the caps I notice a tear in radiator which needs to be fixed while speaker is apart. So fortunately it will be a day or before I can run speaker and listen/test. Will keep you posted

[Lbk]

Left speaker - Radiator repaired, sonicaps 6 uf and 2 2uf are in. Dayton 68uf in woofer section. 

Right speaker - all caps are Dayton audio.

 

It's late so I am listening at low volume and really don't hear any difference between the two. Tomorrow I will be able step on it a little and see what I think 

 

Don't know if matter's but daytons have been installed for a while and sonicaps are a new/fresh install.

 

 

 

 

 

[henry4841]

Just for the heck of it I measured some Dayton caps I bought many years ago when I was playing with crossovers with my Atlas Peak ESR+. I have a lot of them but only measured roughly 10 and found that most measured 0.00 with some of the larger ones with an ESR of just a few 0.01. This says nothing about how a capacitor will sound though. Testing ESR is just a tool used mainly for technicians to determine if a capacitor in a circuit has failed not on how it sounds if it is within tolerance. Also it is possible Carl just got a bad run, anything is possible but I doubt that it is the cause. Probably just a case of a capacitor an individual just does not care for how it sounds. I do not use Dayton caps for my crossovers or coupling caps in tube gear. Not my cup of tea. Work well for other means though when they are not in the signal path. 

[Dave A]

41 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Just for the heck of it I measured some Dayton caps I bought many years ago when I was playing with crossovers with my Atlas Peak ESR+. I have a lot of them but only measured roughly 10 and found that most measured 0.00 with some of the larger ones with an ESR of just a few 0.01. This says nothing about how a capacitor will sound though. Testing ESR is just a tool used mainly for technicians to determine if a capacitor in a circuit has failed not on how it sounds if it is within tolerance. Also it is possible Carl just got a bad run, anything is possible but I doubt that it is the cause. Probably just a case of a capacitor an individual just does not care for how it sounds. I do not use Dayton caps for my crossovers or coupling caps in tube gear. Not my cup of tea. Work well for other means though when they are not in the signal path. 

OK so I am curious to know what measurable characteristic of a capacitor generates the variable sound you speak of. If capacitance and ESR is the same what specifically causes different sound output and how do you measure.

 

  Depending on how old those caps were the latest versions would have to measure better because manufacturing tolerances get better not worse over time.  Which reminds me of a question I have yet to get answered. What measurable values were used to determine what capacitors were close enough to spec to use on vintage crossovers like the AA, A, and Type E E2 etc? Did Klipsch consider things like ESR when specing those or did they go with capacitance and price tag only? If for instance the AA crossover was meant to have a 10% + or - range to be OK what specific values were considered ideal? My assumption is that the selected values on the schematics were there partially based on what was economically available and perhaps a 13uf really should have been a 12.65uf according to the math. Or did the precise value of a coil allow for the use of the 13uf and still have a correct mathematical solution?

[henry4841]

23 minutes ago, Dave A said:

OK so I am curious to know what measurable characteristic of a capacitor generates the variable sound you speak of. If capacitance and ESR is the same what specifically causes different sound output and how do you measure.

 

  Depending on how old those caps were the latest versions would have to measure better because manufacturing tolerances get better not worse over time.  Which reminds me of a question I have yet to get answered. What measurable values were used to determine what capacitors were close enough to spec to use on vintage crossovers like the AA, A, and Type E E2 etc? Did Klipsch consider things like ESR when specing those or did they go with capacitance and price tag only? If for instance the AA crossover was meant to have a 10% + or - range to be OK what specific values were considered ideal? My assumption is that the selected values on the schematics were there partially based on what was economically available and perhaps a 13uf really should have been a 12.65uf according to the math. Or did the precise value of a coil allow for the use of the 13uf and still have a correct mathematical solution?

I honestly do not know the answer to your first question. Bob Crites states on his website if they measure the same ESR and capacitance they will sound the same. I tend to disagree but I do not have the know how or ability to do so. Neither have I taken the same measured capacitance and ESR of two different caps and installed them in a circuit to see if I could tell any difference. It would take someone with the skills and superior hearing to properly evaluate the test. Being old I would surely not be the one. Someone like my grandson that can actually hear a dog whistle device and cringes when it is turned on when I like most hear nothing. But then he would also have to be trand in the audio field as well. Also the thought on there may be something we are not aware of or know how to measure that would make a difference. We learn more about what we hear with technical advances every year or decade at least. 

 

I think you are correct on your last statement. On the older AA type 1st order crossovers precise values are not really necessary.  From what I have read here and other places the newer speaker crossovers with a steeper designed crossover use a lot of Myler caps which are polyester probably for cost consideration and the engineers at Klipsch consider good enough. Companies have to consider the components available as well. There is no 12.65uf cap and it would be terrible expensive the have one made with that kind of tolerance if possible at all. Like all engineers they probably do the math then select the part with the closest value available with price considerations also being considered. All of this paragraph is guess work on my part. An engineer at Klipsch is the only one who could properly answer the question. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by henry4841