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CECAA850

Problem with Dayton caps?

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10 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Bob Crites states on his website if they measure the same ESR and capacitance they will sound the same. I tend to disagree but I do not have the know how or ability to do so.

In general that is what I think also. Where I disagree with him is the capacitor used for the woofer. A 50uf poly cap in a KPT-904 bass bin has clearly better sound than one of those dinky electrolytics. You can get close to the same ESR and capacitance between the two but the sound is not the same. Another question I would like an answer to. It is not voodoo hoodoo there has to be a specific set of electrical, and yes measurable, characteristics design engineers use to come up with all the different type of caps. Capacitors are so full of snake oil claims that "can't be measured" but are discernable to golden ears that I have opted to just do what Bob does. Like you I do not have a set of those golden ears.

 

 

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We all choose different rabbit holes to go down, and the capacitor hole is a really deep one.  The more I try and investigate and learn, the deeper down the hole I seem to end up, and it's really dark.  LOL

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

In general that is what I think also. Where I disagree with him is the capacitor used for the woofer. A 50uf poly cap in a KPT-904 bass bin has clearly better sound than one of those dinky electrolytics. You can get close to the same ESR and capacitance between the two but the sound is not the same. Another question I would like an answer to. It is not voodoo hoodoo there has to be a specific set of electrical, and yes measurable, characteristics design engineers use to come up with all the different type of caps. Capacitors are so full of snake oil claims that "can't be measured" but are discernable to golden ears that I have opted to just do what Bob does. Like you I do not have a set of those golden ears.

 

 

There is a significant difference between an electrolytic cap and a film one. Any time you use a film cap in a circuit vs an electrolytic I am like you and believe it is an improvement. I am sure cost considerations were the principle reason an electrolytic was used in said network. The engineers probably decided it would be good enough and save money. 

 

Let's assume some things. if Carl takes the caps he likes Audyn with him when he test the Daytons and they test much the same then why does he prefer one over the other? If one test slightly better, few uf's better or an ESR a few 0.001, I do not believe the difference will be significant enough. This also assumes there is not some major error in the Dayton caps.There are better ways to test capacitors than the little cheap, relatively, ESR meters being sold. One I am aware of is with an oscilloscope along with some other more expensive lab type capacitor testers. Hearing is so subjective and there is so much we as human beings do not know about hearing that I do no not believe we will ever fully understand. I have an oscilloscope and signal generator but to my way thinking too much trouble. Much easier to just find a cap brand you like and stick with it. 

Edited by henry4841
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Has anyone used any of these Soviet made caps ?
Yes I bought a few of them and have not tried them. I did put my tester on them and the Measure within specs and have a very low esr .
Last week I bought a single Klipsch H1 from Emile, I think I’ll pull the crossover and give them a try

Capacitor PIO OMBG-1 ОМБГ-1 400V 2uF 10% Ussr Soviet Military Rhombus
6f3533e9cdaf63df2cec97ea377a1cb9.jpg
fd07ce475ca8e5f73d14b4b57293861a.jpg
f5238752e2d62ebd508324dc9e8d5945.jpg


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Some time ago I bought a B&K 885 for inductance and capacitance measuring. It is not one of those $80 china hobbiest types of meters because I wanted to know that what I was measuring was accurate. But I am limited as to what I can measure and there has to be more to it. Bob also has an oscilloscope and I have no doubt he has measured caps with it and that in part his choice to use Sonicaps would have been based on measuring with his oscilloscope and his B&K 885. I have never had a conversation with him about all the reasons for choosing Sonicaps but I figured the values available from them and good tolerances were chief considerations.

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56 minutes ago, Pete H said:

We all choose different rabbit holes to go down, and the capacitor hole is a really deep one.  The more I try and investigate and learn, the deeper down the hole I seem to end up, and it's really dark.  LOL

It's the opaque fragrant brown substance those snake oil dudes shove you into that makes it so dark. I have gotten to the point where if certain key words pop up in a capacitors description I generally go no further.

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14 hours ago, Lbk said:

Left speaker - Radiator repaired, sonicaps 6 uf and 2 2uf are in. Dayton 68uf in woofer section. 

Right speaker - all caps are Dayton audio.

 

It's late so I am listening at low volume and really don't hear any difference between the two. Tomorrow I will be able step on it a little and see what I think 

 

Don't know if matter's but daytons have been installed for a while and sonicaps are a new/fresh install.

 

 

 

 

 

Listened this morning and the sonicaps seem to be slightly cleaner. This could because of a bad solder job and not Dayton audio caps, overall no major difference. Will have to put in other sonicaps and see that cleans up the right speaker a little.

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For a right to left comparison to be more valid you need to measure driver ohms too so that you know they are fairly close. Now I have had K-55's that ohmed OK but did not sound very good so other things can come into play there too. Switching your crossovers to the other speaker would help give you real results to see if the sound quality follows.

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5 hours ago, carlthess40 said:

Has anyone used any of these Soviet made caps ?
Yes I bought a few of them and have not tried them. I did put my tester on them and the Measure within specs and have a very low esr .
Last week I bought a single Klipsch H1 from Emile, I think I’ll pull the crossover and give them a try

Capacitor PIO OMBG-1 ОМБГ-1 400V 2uF 10% Ussr Soviet Military Rhombus
6f3533e9cdaf63df2cec97ea377a1cb9.jpg
fd07ce475ca8e5f73d14b4b57293861a.jpg
f5238752e2d62ebd508324dc9e8d5945.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1418911565_2019-08-0901_58_33a.thumb.jpg.ee137dd5ebd96140d5c100abe2665f27.jpg

 

I used these 6uf caps in my KLF-10's. Both tested exactly 6uf and had next to no measurable ESR with my cheapy ESR meter. They are paper in oil, metal foil caps. These upgraded crossovers yielded a significant change in sound quality from the original crossover, and since my KLF's are less than 20 years old, I don't think the original caps were that worn out.

 

In regards to ESR: My cheap tester seems to work pretty good. I've tried it with old caps and it shows increased ESR, and new caps test low.

 

Another interesting thing I'm finding is that the leads of a capacitor have a lot to do with ESR. The way that the leads are attached to the cap and also the way cap makers choose to "terminate" the wound materials can affect performance. Some more simply finished caps will show increased ESR after several hours of use, whereas caps that have better materials and termination methods show no changes in ESR even after hundreds or thousands of hours of use. Also, with cheaper caps, if you wiggle the leads, you'll get changes in ESR. The ClarityCaps I tested didn't show changes in ESR with lead wiggling. ClarityCap touts a high quality method of end termination.

 

While my simple and limited experiments are by no means conclusive nor applicable to all capacitors (because I only tested a few brands/types), they may help explain differences in price and performance of capacitors. And it may help explain sound differences in caps that initially measure the same.

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41 minutes ago, MechEngVic said:

In regards to ESR:

And if you like baseball, how bout a good curve. I've found that caps with higher ESR can sound better than those with lower ESRs. Paul put some magic mouse pee in those old oil cap cans he used back in the day. 

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1 hour ago, JL Sargent said:

And if you like baseball, how bout a good curve. I've found that caps with higher ESR can sound better than those with lower ESRs. Paul put some magic mouse pee in those old oil cap cans he used back in the day. 

I believe you. A higher ESR cap can improve the overall impedance of a crossover. They can also open up frequency ranges that may be lacking in the existing crossover. The problem with a cap that begins increasing in ESR is, it will eventually allow DC current to move across it and that's when it can become destructive. In speakers you really don't have to worry about it, in amps you do.

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20 hours ago, carlthess40 said:

Has anyone used any of these Soviet made caps ?
Yes I bought a few of them and have not tried them. I did put my tester on them and the Measure within specs and have a very low esr .
Last week I bought a single Klipsch H1 from Emile, I think I’ll pull the crossover and give them a try

Capacitor PIO OMBG-1 ОМБГ-1 400V 2uF 10% Ussr Soviet Military Rhombus
6f3533e9cdaf63df2cec97ea377a1cb9.jpg
fd07ce475ca8e5f73d14b4b57293861a.jpg
f5238752e2d62ebd508324dc9e8d5945.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have some of those in a crossover for another set of speakers I own. I like the sound of them. 

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13 hours ago, JL Sargent said:

 Paul put some magic mouse pee in those old oil cap cans he used back in the day. 

Those oil can caps are motor run capacitors that are chiefly used in air conditioner units in an extremely hostile environment. They are a film capacitor made to high standards and I use them in amplifier and crossover builds when possible. Many say that some of those expensive boutique capacitors are nothing more then dressed up motor run caps. All I can say is get some, test them, listen with then and see what you find. They are inexpensive for what you get. What can you lose, PWK liked and used them for a reason.  

Edited by henry4841

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Several years, ago Bob Crites furnished GE Motor Run capacitors as part of refurb kits for Type AA networks in a pair of La Scalas rescued after decades of service in an Ohio bar.  I believe Bob has since exhausted his supply of motor runs.  The speakers now provide loud and clear music in a large band practice room for a Michigan high school.  Due to the possibility that the many users might turn the solid state amp to 11, I chose to leave the Zener diodes in place.

 

post-6832-0-18640000-1423623240_thumb.jpgpost-6832-0-41520000-1423623253_thumb.jpg

post-6832-0-85640000-1442844820_thumb.jpgpost-6832-0-60120000-1423623361_thumb.jpg

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The zener diodes are a safety measure for the delicate tweeter. That being said I do not have them in my AA's but my kids blew my tweeters on a couple of occasions when I was not at home with the AL-3's without the diodes. Not a problem now since they are gone from house. A good solution would be buy a couple of the tweeters that do not need zener's from bob and use the simple AA crossover without the diodes. The combination would probably be an improvement. 

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17 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

Several years, ago Bob Crites furnished GE Motor Run capacitors as part of refurb kits for Type AA networks in a pair of La Scalas rescued after decades of service in an Ohio bar.  I believe Bob has since exhausted his supply of motor runs.  The speakers now provide loud and clear music in a large band practice room for a Michigan high school.  Due to the possibility that the many users might turn the solid state amp to 11, I chose to leave the Zener diodes in place.

 

post-6832-0-18640000-1423623240_thumb.jpgpost-6832-0-41520000-1423623253_thumb.jpg

post-6832-0-85640000-1442844820_thumb.jpgpost-6832-0-60120000-1423623361_thumb.jpg

Wow. Good job on restoring those! 

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On 8/25/2020 at 12:36 PM, Lbk said:

Listened this morning and the sonicaps seem to be slightly cleaner. This could because of a bad solder job and not Dayton audio caps, overall no major difference. Will have to put in other sonicaps and see that cleans up the right speaker a little.

Been listening for a week now and the sonicaps are definitely crisper, cleaner and a little more detailed.( They seemed to have opened up some) I will try to get the sonicaps in the other speaker this weekend and see what happens sound wise.

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On 8/26/2020 at 5:40 AM, henry4841 said:

Those oil can caps are motor run capacitors that are chiefly used in air conditioner units in an extremely hostile environment. They are a film capacitor made to high standards and I use them in amplifier and crossover builds when possible. Many say that some of those expensive boutique capacitors are nothing more then dressed up motor run caps. All I can say is get some, test them, listen with then and see what you find. They are inexpensive for what you get. What can you lose, PWK liked and used them for a reason.  

I've used Genteq caps a couple times in Lascalas and really like them.

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On 8/25/2020 at 9:08 AM, carlthess40 said:

Has anyone used any of these Soviet made caps ?
Yes I bought a few of them and have not tried them. I did put my tester on them and the Measure within specs and have a very low esr .
Last week I bought a single Klipsch H1 from Emile, I think I’ll pull the crossover and give them a try

Capacitor PIO OMBG-1 ОМБГ-1 400V 2uF 10% Ussr Soviet Military Rhombus
f5238752e2d62ebd508324dc9e8d5945.jpg

 

 

 

Yep, I used these when I first rebuilt a pair of '78 model Type AA crossovers I used in my Belle clones.  The seller in Bulgaria, I think it was, was great to work with and even matched all of them up that I bought.  I've since sod the crossovers to another member here but haven't heard from him as to how he likes them.  I thought they sounded great...for how well I hear these days.  I ended up buying all new parts and built new Type AA's with Audyn Plus caps on the mids & tweetrs and the Audyn Q4 on the woofer side.  Those sound quite good and hopefully can stay there if I decide to change out the K-500 horns over to K-510 or Eliptrac horns staying with the A-55G mids.

 

But, yes, I do like these caps.

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I just got a single H1 with the type E-2 crossover I’ll try to run a rew test ( a newbie with rew) and then change out the 2.0uf caps and retest them and listen to them and see if the sound is to my liking
If so, I’ll replace all the caps in my other / older H1’s with these brown cap cans
Thanks


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