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Goodin

Which Marantz for Cornwall I's?

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Hi everyone, I'm new here!

 

I just got a pair of Cornwall 1's, later model with B-3 crossovers.  I am having Crites re-build the crossovers and I am getting new Crites tweeters.  They should arrive at the end of the week.  I have been using vintage stereo equipment for a handful of years now but I am just recently learning about the terminology and how it all works.  From my research,  I learned about speaker sensitivity and that Klipsch speakers have high sensitivity so they don't need much power to get them to make sound.  I have also read that I need to get an amp with wattage much more than the speaker wattage (not sure the correct terminology to use here).  I want to get a 1970's 22xx or 23xx series Marantz receiver to power the Cornwall's.  Any thoughts on which receiver would be ideal (or wattage range, watts/channel)?  Thoughts on sound quality with a 1970's Marantz and Cornwalls? 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Goodin said:

.  I have also read that I need to get an amp with wattage much more than the speaker wattage (not sure the correct terminology to use here).  I want to get a 1970's 22xx or 23xx series Marantz receiver to power the Cornwall's.  Any thoughts on which receiver would be ideal (or wattage range, watts/channel)?  Thoughts on sound quality with a 1970's Marantz and Cornwalls? 

That's a common misconception that I think comes from articles about low sensitivity speakers, especially in home theater magazines.

 

Some may say 10W is all you need, or 25W or even 50W.

 

You don't need a lot of power, they are 98.5 db sensitivity so it will depend on how loud you want to play. But even a good 25 or 50W amp is going to be mind blowing.

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10 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

That's a common misconception that I think comes from articles about low sensitivity speakers, especially in home theater magazines.

 

Some may say 10W is all you need, or 25W or even 50W.

 

You don't need a lot of power, they are 98.5 db sensitivity so it will depend on how loud you want to play. But even a good 25 or 50W amp is going to be mind blowing.

This is spot on.  My unrestored vertical CW's sound great on my Marantz 2010, 2215, 2230 & 4270.  Marantz and Heritage Klipsch are great partners.  But they also shine with a Dynaco ST70, all Carver gear or even my little chifi 3.5 watt APPJ amp.  Guess those CW's just sound good period! 😎

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@Goodin  Be sure and update after upgrades.  Mine are in need of similar upgrades so your take on them afterwards is valuable to me.  Used the Crites tweeter & X/O upgrades on my KG1's KG4's & Quartets.  Sure you'll be happy with the SQ upgrades from his work also.

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Ok thanks for your input guys.  I have my eye on several Marantz's, and really like the huge powerful 23xx series, but also enjoy having more money in my pocket ;).  Is it possible to over power Cornwalls?  Would 125 watts/channel be too much (as in the Marantz 2325)?  

 

Will do Thomas.  I plan to put the crossovers back in then have a listen, then install the tweeters.  I'll let you know how it goes. 

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It is possible to overpower them.  But, as long as you don't hear any distortion while you're listening to them you're fine.

 

A vintage Marantz would be a fantastic match to Cornwalls. 

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Used to power my CW-1's with a Marantz 2252B (52+ WPC). More than enough power and GREAT sound quality. Highly recommended.  Don't think you can go wrong with Marantz 22**, but for "main speaker" use I would recommend at least 50WPC with a low distortion rating.

But ... delegated my CW's to rear speaker duty (hardly ever used) and now power them with a (vintage) Yamaha CR-620 (35wpc) - sound is probably "just as good" and these receivers can be found for $100.  You may want to look at the better Yamaha CR-1020 (80wpc) or CR02040 (120wpc).  Good luck! :D 

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Silly people. I have owned Cornwall originals with the only change a recap with russian PIO's.

 

There is only one Marantz unit that suits them well, and that's a Marantz 8b.

 

Mine only cost $50 so it's a bargain play producing quality sound.

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10 minutes ago, thebes said:

Silly people. I have owned Cornwall originals with the only change a recap with russian PIO's.

 

There is only one Marantz unit that suits them well, and that's a Marantz 8b.

 

Mine only cost $50 so it's a bargain play producing quality sound.

There you have it. 

 

Thebes knows Cornwalls, the answer is 35WPC with valves. Wait, Marty do you run that in Ultra-liner or Triode?

 

There is a connection between Saul and PWK on specifying IM Distrotion in the specs.

 

Power Output per Channel: 35 watts (70 watts peak) "Ultra-Linear" operation. Nearly 20 watts of excellent Triode operation can be obtained by altering two connections inside chassis.

Response (at 35 watts): Within 0,2 dB from 20 cps to 20 kc (equivalent of ± 0,1 dB). Within 1 dB from 15 cps to 40 kc into "Grid" input. At 0,5 watt: ±1 dB from 3 cps to 40 kc. Response has been deliberately rolled off approx. 7 dB at 100 kc to control transient response. Subsonic Filter in standard "Input" alowly rolls response off below 20 cps (less than 1 dB at 20 cps: -10 dB at 3 cps. etc)

Distortion (THD at 35 watts😞 Less than 0,1% at midfrequencies. Less than 0,5% from 20 cps to 20kc. Intermodulation distortion at 35 watts equivalent (70 watts peak): Less than 0,5% (60 cps/12 kc, 4:1): (I.M. messurement of typical amplifier: 35 W. equiv. 0,5%; 30 W equiv. 0,28%; 20 W equiv. 0,17%; 10 W equiv. 0,11%). Distortion below 35 W is largely of second order, and reduces rapidly with signal level.

 

Inverse Feedback and Stability: 20 dB of overall feedback. Great care has been taken to ensure stability and low distortion under widely varying loads, both resistive and reactive, such as are encounterd in loudspeaker systems. Power supply surges are balanced out of signal channels providingexcellent recovery from strong transients. Will not oscillate under any condition of open circuit capacitive load.

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22 hours ago, Goodin said:

I want to get a 1970's 22xx or 23xx series Marantz receiver to power the Cornwall's.  Any thoughts on which receiver would be ideal (or wattage range, watts/channel)?  Thoughts on sound quality with a 1970's Marantz and Cornwalls? 

I have a few 22xx Marantz and they do play well with Klipsch. From what I've read, the 2285, 2285B  are a couple of the best, but I haven't owned either. I have a 2238B and a 2270 that sound great.

Whatever you get, they need refreshed. 

 

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Thebes, why are people silly for offering up their opinions?  By that logic you are also silly.  Marantz 8b's would be great but I don't have $3,000 to spend on an amp.  Good for you for finding one for $50.  

 

 

 

54 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

There is a connection between Saul and PWK on specifying IM Distrotion in the specs.

 

Power Output per Channel: 35 watts (70 watts peak) "Ultra-Linear" operation. Nearly 20 watts of excellent Triode operation can be obtained by altering two connections inside chassis.

Response (at 35 watts): Within 0,2 dB from 20 cps to 20 kc (equivalent of ± 0,1 dB). Within 1 dB from 15 cps to 40 kc into "Grid" input. At 0,5 watt: ±1 dB from 3 cps to 40 kc. Response has been deliberately rolled off approx. 7 dB at 100 kc to control transient response. Subsonic Filter in standard "Input" alowly rolls response off below 20 cps (less than 1 dB at 20 cps: -10 dB at 3 cps. etc)

Distortion (THD at 35 watts😞 Less than 0,1% at midfrequencies. Less than 0,5% from 20 cps to 20kc. Intermodulation distortion at 35 watts equivalent (70 watts peak): Less than 0,5% (60 cps/12 kc, 4:1): (I.M. messurement of typical amplifier: 35 W. equiv. 0,5%; 30 W equiv. 0,28%; 20 W equiv. 0,17%; 10 W equiv. 0,11%). Distortion below 35 W is largely of second order, and reduces rapidly with signal level.

 

Inverse Feedback and Stability: 20 dB of overall feedback. Great care has been taken to ensure stability and low distortion under widely varying loads, both resistive and reactive, such as are encounterd in loudspeaker systems. Power supply surges are balanced out of signal channels providingexcellent recovery from strong transients. Will not oscillate under any condition of open circuit capacitive load.

 

Newbie here so I don't know what any of this means.  Care to give me the cliff notes?  Or just tell me to get about a 35 watt amp and call it good. :) 

 

Thanks for the helpful input guys. 

 

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9 hours ago, Goodin said:

Or just tell me to get about a 35 watt amp and call it good. :)

 

At this point, that might be best. Audio heaven is a journey and if you got the 8b, you wouldn't know what you have because you didn't experience less. I have never owned one, I have read about them. So, remember that whatever you have and however great it sounds, there is still the Marantz 8b. 

 

Back to the 35 wpc power source... You might like the sound of a HK 730 Twin better than many, maybe any, SS Marantz. 

As far as thebes, he speaks more than one language, One is tongue in cheek, which not everyone can. Also, he sold Puff to buy the 8b. 

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Really hear good things about those H/Ks.

An option possibly is a nice Marantz as mentioned and to amplify them with the Marantz mono blocks. MA500(125 watt)

or the MA700(200 watt).

Of course, sort of defeats the stand alone purpose of a standalone vintage Marantz but, then you have better bass control it is said about more power.

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22 hours ago, Goodin said:

Thebes, why are people silly for offering up their opinions?  By that logic you are also silly.  Marantz 8b's would be great but I don't have $3,000 to spend on an amp.  Good for you for finding one for $50.  

 

Sorry. Can't never resist any opportunity to not so  subtly brag about the score of the century.

 

Look, anything you buy from  back in the day comes with additional costs, because after 25 years or so the caps dry out and the sound dries out with it. It becomes flat and muted.

 

Really the best way to approach this whole subject is to start out with a price point and your musical tastes.  We can then tailor our responses to your specific needs whilst working on separating you from your significant other, who will eventually join us for a glass of wine (mouth sanitizer) and listen to a tune or two.

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I recently found a Marantz 2210 (10 watts per channel) with the wood case locally, and I'm floored at how sweet it sounds with my KLF30s in a smallish room. All of these older Marantz will need some settings adjusted for optimal sound (bias, DC offset) as well as possibly new capacitors or transistors. The 2220 or 2230 share the same capacitor coupled design and sound great with Klipsch. I like the big boys also! My recapped 2330B is a favorite but Klipsch don't need nearly that much power. Hard to really go wrong with these vintage Marantz, just make sure to check the functions beforehand. Have fun! 

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22 hours ago, Goodin said:

Newbie here so I don't know what any of this means.  Care to give me the cliff notes?  Or just tell me to get about a 35 watt amp and call it good. :)

 

Thanks for the helpful input guys. 

I'm not a tech person, I was just posting the Specs from Marty's 8b amp.

 

The key thing is that Saul Marantz and PWK were friends. Paul started publishing on distortion and how important it was to have low distortion to have good sounding speakers, especially low inter modulation distortion. It was at this time that Marantz starting publishing their IM distortion specs, before anyone else did (if they ever did).

 

We have Paul's amps in the Museum, none are monsters, all are known for their low,  relatively, IM distortion.

 

The tech people can add vastly more to this.

 

Warning, if they start using words like "topology" get yourself a drink.

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Quite frankly, since you are using horn loaded midrange and tweeters, you are going to have a ton of efficiency. That fact combined with the drivers presenting a friendly impedance to the amplifier should make life easy. Well, here is the rub. These are very efficient speakers (little wattage gives much SPL) so any hiss or hum from the amplifier (along with distortion)  can be quite audible. If you get an older amplifier, it may need to be bought up to spec when you use high efficiency speakers. IOW, worry less about watts ....

 

Good luck, 

-Tom

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2 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

Quite frankly, since you are using horn loaded midrange and tweeters, you are going to have a ton of efficiency. That fact combined with the drivers presenting a friendly impedance to the amplifier should make life easy. Well, here is the rub. These are very efficient speakers (little wattage gives much SPL) so any hiss or hum from the amplifier (along with distortion)  can be quite audible. If you get an older amplifier, it may need to be bought up to spec when you use high efficiency speakers. IOW, worry less about watts ....

 

Good luck, 

-Tom

The hiss thing is a very good point Tom.

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3 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

The hiss thing is a very good point Tom.

Very valid point.  Night & day difference with my Marantz receivers SQ before & after being upgraded.  They power my Polk 7's & Klipsh's beautifully after restoration.  But why wouldn't you want to bring up to spec. or restore a nice vintage piece of audio equipment to realize it's full potential?  Granted, cost is always a consideration but for me, making the choice to purchase a vintage audio item implied the responsibility of eventually upgrading degraded components to really enjoy the true qualities and potential of that particular audio item.  Still have several receivers, amp & speakers in the que for restoration as time and $$ permit.  Not being electronically inclined myself, I've researched & acquired the expert abilities of multiple tech for my equipment restoration.  But still take personal pride in the fact that I've taken the steps necessary to bring some great equipment back to life for the benefit of the next generation to enjoy (hopefully).

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