CD's at Amazon

[Chris A]

11 minutes ago, artto said:

So, I really don't understand why anyone still insists on "preferring" a physical medium.

I read an interesting (very interesting) statistic a couple of years ago: ~50% of the people that currently buy phonograph records don't own a turntable/phono preamp etc. to play those records.  They're apparently buying phonograph records to have the artwork--and I guess look at, smell, taste and/or feel the record(s). 

 

It's a strange world we live in...once you get just below the surface.  Sort of like our political processes, etc.  The truth apparently doesn't set everyone free... 😉

 

Chris

[billybob]

1 minute ago, Chris A said:

I read an interesting (very interesting) statistic a couple of years ago: ~50% of the people that currently buy phonograph records don't own a turntable/phono preamp etc. to play those records.  They're apparently buying phonograph records to have the artwork--and a guess look at, smell, taste and/or feel the record(s). 

 

It's a strange world we live in...once you get just below the surface.  Sort of like our political processes, etc.  The truth apparently doesn't set everyone free... 😉

 

Chris

Not to go off but since related somehow, what has been your

experience with record listening?

Thanks!

[artto]

1 minute ago, Chris A said:

I read an interesting (very interesting) statistic a couple of years ago: ~50% of the people that currently buy phonograph records don't own a turntable/phono preamp etc. to play those records.  They're apparently buying phonograph records to have the artwork--and I guess look at, smell, taste and/or feel the record(s). 

 

It's a strange world we live in...once you get just below the surface.  Sort of like our political processes, etc.  The truth apparently doesn't set everyone free... 😉

 

Chris

Kind of like "give me that good ol' time religion" kind of stuff

[Max2]

Wow. 

 

Im sure that Ipod stuck in a box in an attic will bring a lot of joy to a grandkid that receives it once they're old enough to appreciate music of the past. Hopefully it will play and not get wet or rust out or the battery die in decades to come.   Nevermind having an album cover to gaze at while holding or the thought of when and where their now gone gramps or grams might have purchased it or where they were in life to find interest in said Artist.   Who else here possibly inherited and old album collection from a friend or loved one that has real meaning?  Digital media, Yay! 

[artto]

2 minutes ago, billybob said:

Not to go off but since related somehow, what has been your

experience with record listening?

Thanks!

 

For me............

 

1) I can't even tell you how many records I've returned over the decades because of skips, ticks & pops. I remember one I took back maybe 5 or more copies - all had the same (severe) defect. More recently similar experiences even with $50 LP from high-end purveyors like Analog Productions/Acoustic Sounds.

 

2) I have a couple thousand LP. Almost all in super excellent condition. And some of the most highly regarded equipment to play them with. I have done direct 1 on 1 comparisons to their digital counterpart. In my experience, as you get your playback system closer and closer to "neutral" (unbiased for any particular kind of music or media) the differences become less and less - but in the end, digital has less noise & interference (ticks, pops, skips on LP). and is certainly much more convenient and easy to use).

 

3) I've said this before but merits being said again. The phonograph record was NEVER an "ultimate" playback media. It was always the "poor man's" high fidelity. Real audiophiles used RTR tape.

 

[artto]

5 minutes ago, Max2 said:

Wow. 

 

Im sure that Ipod stuck in a box in an attic will bring a lot of joy to a grandkid that receives it once they're old enough to appreciate music of the past. Hopefully it will play and not get wet or rust out or the battery die in decades to come.   Nevermind having an album cover to gaze at while holding or the thought of when and where their now gone gramps or grams might have purchased it or where they were in life to find interest in said Artist.   Who else here possibly inherited and old album collection from a friend or loved one that has real meaning?  Digital media, Yay! 

What they are going to say is "What the hell is this S***?" regardless of whether it's an iPod or tape or LP or CD.

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, billybob said:

Not to go off but since related somehow, what has been your

experience with record listening?

Thanks!

(I see that Art has stepped in to answer, but I'll post the answer that I was crafting before Art replied to your question--which was directed my way...as honestly as I can).  And I tell you what: if you promise to take that discussion off to another thread on that particular subject (we're diluting this one) if you choose to reply to my response, I'll tell you my experiences with my old Empire 398 TT, etc. (i.e., a turntable having extremely low rumble/flutter/wow/etc.).  Agreed?

 

My experience with the best phonograph records that I own (about 600 of those at last count--and unchanging since generally I don't buy them any more):

 

Some records having a lot of full instrumentation (like a rock band, etc.), records can be very entertaining, but I wouldn't call them "hi-fi".  The first difference that I hear vs. CDs of the same recordings is that the phonograph records have a lot more noise (pops, ticks, wow, flutter, etc.) and sound more opaque than their CD counterparts (and no, I don't own a $5000 record cleaning machine--mine cost me $75 a decade ago).  The soundstage of these phonograph recordings are also much flatter and sometimes narrower (indicating the phonograph record stereo channel separation has been pushed more toward mono tracks than their CD counterparts).  But sometimes they are entertaining to listen to.

 

Since I learned how to demaster my recordings, I usually buy the oldest CDs that I can find to demaster (which are usually the highest true dynamic range available without the disc noise).  These can be extremely good compared to their phonograph record counterparts--after demastering--which is I believe the source of the dissatisfaction with old CDs (i.e., bad mastering EQ was used up until 1991). 

 

Newer recordings on CD since 1991 have progressively been damaged more and more from the record companies in order to ostensibly make them "more commercial sounding" (and I can give many examples).  So for the average joe walking down the street, I believe the attraction of phonograph records today is that they cannot be abused like digital tracks (including and especially lossy compression tracks that are streamed online). 

 

 

[Max2]

1 hour ago, artto said:

What they are going to say is "What the hell is this S***?" regardless of whether it's an iPod or tape or LP or CD.

But many will be appreciative and find it interesting delving in to your full envelope of musical interests over the years. And who knows, just maybe one of the receiving folk will just be very appreciative to receive something that you enjoyed. 

[thebes]

A separate thread is in order based on Arto's silliness, even though I like and respect you.  Arto. You know it won't be personal.  I'll put it up sometime over the weekend.

 

But to respond to the original post, you have many options.  First, Ebay and Discogs for used.  Next, Acoustic Sounds  for brand new. (there's another major site like this but I can't remember the name right now.) Then there's the labels themselves. Every minor and major label still in existence has a website, and if you like a particular artist don't forget the artist's website. Even if they no longer tour, you'd be surprised at how many still peddle their albums online.

 

finally, hit  the local music shops and don't forget the basic. Yard sale, estate sales, and your local donation center (Salvation Army etc.)

Then try your local Craigslist, Nextdoor Neighbor, library book sales and friends.

 

It's a hunt. Sorta like when you started dating. Everything's in play and the hunt itself is loads of fun. (well not quite as much as chasing sex, but a lot of the musicians on those cd's write and sing songs about sex)

[Jeff Matthews]

On 8/27/2020 at 10:04 AM, artto said:

On 8/27/2020 at 9:57 AM, Max2 said:

Wow. 

 

Im sure that Ipod stuck in a box in an attic will bring a lot of joy to a grandkid that receives it once they're old enough to appreciate music of the past. Hopefully it will play and not get wet or rust out or the battery die in decades to come.   Nevermind having an album cover to gaze at while holding or the thought of when and where their now gone gramps or grams might have purchased it or where they were in life to find interest in said Artist.   Who else here possibly inherited and old album collection from a friend or loved one that has real meaning?  Digital media, Yay! 

What they are going to say is "What the hell is this S***?" regardless of whether it's an iPod or tape or LP or CD.

"Anyone want these?  If not, they're going in the garbage."

[ClaudeJ1]

On 8/27/2020 at 10:29 AM, artto said:

 

One of the long standing problems of retaining fidelity - of the original - in the form of duplication (especially analog), has ALWAYS been the physical medium. It is a major limiting factor in regards to what we hear. And that is not only because of the physical media itself, but also the additional equipment that's required to play it, all of which add their own additional noise, distortion and phase artifacts in addition to that of the physical media itself.

 

We don't have to do that anymore.

 

So, I really don't understand why anyone still insists on "preferring" a physical medium. Even cost is not an excuse anymore.

 

Better sound quality can now be obtained without the physical media, and without the additional equipment and cables/connections required to play it, not to mention the ease of use and access to it virtually anywhere you want.

So here's a basic question: like Tiff or Jpg ro images: full CD resolution full format or MP3-320 bit rate?

[Schu]

I just got this from Amazon this afternoon... $40

 

 

It sounds FANTASTIC!

[artto]

14 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

So here's a basic question: like Tiff or Jpg ro images: full CD resolution full format or MP3-320 bit rate?

Nope. That's not quite what I'm talking about, even in the digital domain.

 

When someone says "I listen to and prefer digital" (or analog) what do they really mean?

 

In the digital domain, what I'm referring to is the media itself. In most cases this is predominately some kind of disc, like CD. This CD "media" needs some kind of player, an additional component to play it.

 

1) This CD, has errors on it. It is a pressed piece of (usually) some kind of aluminum substrate. It is "pressed" much like a vinyl LP pressed - to make an impression in the media of the data/information. It is not perfect. The laser(s) in the CD player that read the disc are not perfect, and they do not read the digital data perfectly while the CD is spinning at a constantly varying speed. That's why we have digital error correction, otherwise the this would not work at all.

 

2) The CD player is another electronic component. It has its own contributing noise and distortion.

 

3) Then you have to connect the CD player to something. Most people use the analog outputs. There are analog interconnecting cables to connect the CD player to the amplifier. The affect of this on sound quality is debatable, but it's still something to consider.

 

MY story:

 

A long time ago I acquired my second CD player, a Revox B225. It had volume controls. One day I got the bright idea that I might be able to bypass my preamp (Audio Research SP6B). I connected the Revox directly into my Luxman MB3045 triode power amps (I could control the volume/gain on either). To my surprise (this was 35 years ago) removing the ARC SP6B (still a highly regarded tube preamp) from the signal chain improved the sound quality significantly.

 

Fast forward 35 years. We now have Hi_Res streaming. Analog aficionados will tend to look at this the same way they "perceive" (conceive) analog - as if the digital "bits" are being "streamed" in an analog (serial) fashion from a server "somewhere out there" to our smart phone or PC or some other device that acts as the "player". That's not what is happening. When you have a true digital playback system(except for the speakers, obviously) there are no analog components in the signal path. That means no A/D conversions. No analog volume controls. No analog cables, connections. And no digital player that has (plenty) of analog circuitry.

Ultimately, there is no "player" per se'. The preamp/amp/player are all one (digital) component. It's all just software. And the digital "source", the media so to speak, is just a digital file. There are no errors. It's a perfect copy of the original. It is not streamed from the server (like Tidal or Quboz) bit by bit. It is sent as a file. File loads into the player memory and plays. No spinning disc. No laser reading. No physical media with errors or that can be damaged permanently.

[MicroMara]

13 hours ago, Schu said:

I just got this from Amazon this afternoon... $40

 

 

It sounds FANTASTIC!

The German actor Klaus Kinski plays great in this movie.

[artto]

13 hours ago, Schu said:

I just got this from Amazon this afternoon... $40

 

 

It sounds FANTASTIC!

 

And, every so often you'll come across something (like this one) that's not on Tidal (yet) (or maybe the songs are, but on another release - Morricone was rather prolific), and you have to ante up and buy it. I've had to do that with a few, but it's becoming less and less every day.

[MicroMara]

@artto  said : but it's becoming less and less every day..........

 

Hey, don't throw away your analog or digital equipment yet. The end of the flagpole is not yet reached, but if I should still be on earth in the year 2050 ( unlikely ), a study shows that this is how it is imagined.

 

2050 brain-computer interfaces beam playlists directly into our brains. But concerts and instruments will survive despite mega-computers that can generate and play any kind of music. In 2050, music will be playing directly in our heads, and I believe that in the next 20 or 25 years we will be able to do things without using our sensory organs, to go directly into the brain with brain-computer interfaces. And we will be able to experience music directly in virtual reality, for example as the conductor of a symphony orchestra. There will always be concerts, but everyone has his own music cloud

 

We all already have personalized playlists. Will each of us in 2050 only listen to our music, all alone and screened? This trend will continue to increase, but there will still be concerts in the future, because experiencing music and other media, such as films, together is simply part of social life.

 

Mixing music on the computer is all well and good. But even in 2050 musicians will be picking up instruments and playing them. And that, even though mega-computers will then be able to produce and play any kind of music with gigantic power: They say that in 2050 a computer will have the entire capacity of all human brains. We are talking about 10 billion human brains

 

In 2007, the digital manga girl Hatsune Miku with the long green hair was only supposed to promote a Japanese software that generates artificial singing via speech synthesis. But thanks to the creativity of her fans, who also used the software to produce their own clips of the anime fairy, she quickly became a pop star. She has sung more than 2.5 million Facebook fans and over 10,000 songs, she has toured with Lady Gaga and been on the show with David Letterman. Her hologram concerts are attended by tens of thousands.

 

We will not be able to stop this train..but who wants to have that ?

 

[MicroMara]

here´s the  virtual Concert from digital Manga  Hatsune Miku

 

 

 

[J M O N]

How about Wal-Mart?  For the past several years I've been scrounging the $5 CD bins and have usually found something worth buying that I didn't already have.  Occasionally, I found something on my "wanted" list -- getting something I intended to buy at a much price lower than what I expected to pay.  Recently, I've found that these $5 CDs can also be purchased online.  There are many that are even less that that.  The only problem is that they have so many available online, it can take time so sort through them all.  Shipping is free if you buy enough stuff.