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Jeffrey D. Medwin

What's the most linear tube?

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3 hours ago, henry4841 said:

One does not have to take someone's word on which tube is the most linear if you can read tube charts. The 300B has the most linear curves and the 45 is not far behind. Notice how well the curves are spaced apart and how the different curves taper off on the 300B. That is what you look for when talking about most linear tube. Fantastic looking if one is into such. It's all about the curves. 

 

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/084/3/300B.pdf   page 3. 

 

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/4/45.pdf  page 3

 

These are what designers look at when choosing a tube for a circuit. Same goes for an transistor. Look at the data sheets or if able test for yourself. Anyone who says different is to be ignored. 

I have read in numerous, numerous articles that the 300B was the most linear tube. Seems to be almost universal agreement on that, which is rather surprising.

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1 hour ago, seti said:

 

No offense I just think you did the wrong homework for the wrong class. I've done lots of testing of 45s and my speakers. I've lived with them for 15 years...  It doesn't mach up with many builders and not just me. Do you think Gordon Rankin or Thomas Mayer would spend so many years on the 45 if it had a suck out? The suck out is a sympton of a defective tube or amp or speakers. When I get my hands on a curve tracer I'll go through every 45 I have.  

 

 

 

 

Again, Gordon Rankin and Thomas Meyer do not have the performance of their amplifier circuits, such as I have, due to their power supply topology and their execution.  Throwing out their names, or any one else's,  means nothing to me.  I do not know what they use for speakers.  The ST 45's suck out Seti, is VERY mild, as I described. maybe only 1/2 a dB, not too much of a fault.

 

The real crime of a TYPE 45 ST is that it can NOT ever properly play the struck mid bass notes, and struck upper bass notes, of a grand piano. 

 

It is the tube's problem.  WHY?  Their construction was mass produced / cheap - the leads, down to the 4 PINS, is deficient, not good enough in energy transfer efficiency for critical full-range piano playback. Same problem with a Type 50.  This is COMMON Seti on many of the early ( 1930s) triode power tubes.   If a Type 45 curve traces perfectly, but can't EVER play the lower registers of a grand piano, so.....WHY use the tube ?????????????

 

A 1952 era 6005 will NOT have this problem.  A Modern EML 45 , and in general, modern DHTs such as a JJ 2A3-40, do not have this design problem.  The Sovtec 2A3 tubes you photographed ............... are bettered...... by  JJ 2A3 -40s.

 

You need to have a good amp, one with an LSES supply, and good professional, ( not commercial ) speakers, and one can hear and make such determinations - easily . 

 

I also personally think all of this measurement equipment you are now buying / restoring,  is a waste of resources.  The best sounding amps in this world, are built almost entirely by EAR and common sense logic.   In my experience, you have to listen, THINK, and what you hear is THE final judge !! 

 

Jeff   

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46 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

I have read in numerous, numerous articles that the 300B was the most linear tube. Seems to be almost universal agreement on that, which is rather surprising.

 

300B ...nahhh. not by anyone who really knows.   

 

Linear on a curve tracer, or Linear sounding ????????   I ONLY want the latter !!

 

The 300B gets automatically and immediately ruled out Travis, because it requires a 5 volt DC filament execution, which does not sound as good as a 2A3 , which uses a 2.5 volt filament excitation, lower voltage, and low enough to USE better sounding AC filament heating.  

 

I can personally get higher performance of ANY 300B amp in existence,  RIGHT NOW, with my modern Electro Harmonix KT88 amp, using this under $40.00 non-triode tube.  This present 2019 stereo KT88 amp will soon be mono blocked -  by year end !!   Ohh boy.

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32 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Linear on a curve tracer, or Linear sounding ????????   I ONLY want the latter !!

Hear! Hear! See my signature line...

Dave

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As with everything audio, not the tube for everyone but a lot depends on how it is implemented. My limited knowledge on what I have read is not the best tube for PP circuits but for SE it just sounds gorgeous. At least mine does with Gold Lion tubes and a well established design for the 300b. I would love to hear what it would sound like with the Western Electric tubes but them things are going for ridiculous prices but those that pay the price may know something. I understand they are now being made on the same equipment of yesteryear  but even they are pricey. It is the one amp I have that I would hate to part with. 

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Again, Gordon Rankin and Thomas Meyer do not have the performance of their amplifier circuits, such as I have, due to their power supply topology and their execution.  Throwing out their names, or any one else's,  means nothing to me.  I do not know what they use for speakers.  The ST 45's suck out Seti, is VERY mild, as I described. maybe only 1/2 a dB, not too much of a fault.

 

The real crime of a TYPE 45 ST is that it can NOT ever properly play the struck mid bass notes, and struck upper bass notes, of a grand piano. 

 

It is the tube's problem.  WHY?  Their construction was mass produced / cheap - the leads, down to the 4 PINS, is deficient, not good enough in energy transfer efficiency for critical full-range piano playback. Same problem with a Type 50.  This is COMMON Seti on many of the early ( 1930s) triode power tubes.   If a Type 45 curve traces perfectly, but can't EVER play the lower registers of a grand piano, so.....WHY use the tube ?????????????

 

A 1952 era 6005 will NOT have this problem.  A Modern EML 45 , and in general, modern DHTs such as a JJ 2A3-40, do not have this design problem.  The Sovtec 2A3 tubes you photographed ............... are bettered...... by  JJ 2A3 -40s.

 

You need to have a good amp, one with an LSES supply, and good professional, ( not commercial ) speakers, and one can hear and make such determinations - easily . 

 

I also personally think all of this measurement equipment you are now buying / restoring,  is a waste of resources.  The best sounding amps in this world, are built almost entirely by EAR and common sense logic.   In my experience, you have to listen, THINK, and what you hear is THE final judge !! 

 

Jeff   

 

Dude take the ego down a couple pegs least ye anger the gods.

 

I CALL SHENANIGANS!!!!!!

 

 

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It is only a measurement tool.

Trace it just to do it. No harm.

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1 hour ago, seti said:

 

Dude take the ego down a couple pegs least ye anger the gods.

 

I CALL SHENANIGANS!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

Seti, 

 

Its not a matter of ego at all.

 

Its a matter of the amps I have actually been building for myself, over the last 37 years, and the things I have learned on this journey, from direct experience. 

 

Have you ever heard a tube amp, where the power supply's filter inductors series -DCRs measured 12 Ohms or less??   

 

Have you ever heard an 8 AWG buss bar ground, 133 strands, of high silver content?   No coupling caps ?  All film capacitors.?  Double B+ shunting ?   Final L/C Filters??  Dual directly-heated rectifiers ?   All in one execution ??

 

Has Thomas Mayer, Gordon Rankin, etc.  Likely, NO !!!

 

We as individuals, all bring unique contributions, to the audio art.

 

Jeff 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, henry4841 said:

As with everything audio, not the tube for everyone but a lot depends on how it is implemented. My limited knowledge on what I have read is not the best tube for PP circuits but for SE it just sounds gorgeous. At least mine does with Gold Lion tubes and a well established design for the 300b. I would love to hear what it would sound like with the Western Electric tubes but them things are going for ridiculous prices but those that pay the price may know something. I understand they are now being made on the same equipment of yesteryear  but even they are pricey. It is the one amp I have that I would hate to part with. 

Henry, 

 

Good news !!!    It is now possible today - for someone to implement a SE amp, with the latest 40 dollar Electro - Harmonix Russian-made KT88 tube, that will CREME each and every WE 300B tubed amp, ever in existence !!!  

 

                 250045470_EHKT88.JPG.4bd31204017b70fc019aec0de440251d.JPG

 

Jeff Medwin

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2 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Again, Gordon Rankin and Thomas Meyer do not have the performance of their amplifier circuits, such as I have, due to their power supply topology and their execution.  Throwing out their names, or any one else's,  means nothing to me.  I do not know what they use for speakers.  The ST 45's suck out Seti, is VERY mild, as I described. maybe only 1/2 a dB, not too much of a fault.

 

The real crime of a TYPE 45 ST is that it can NOT ever properly play the struck mid bass notes, and struck upper bass notes, of a grand piano. 

 

It is the tube's problem.  WHY?  Their construction was mass produced / cheap - the leads, down to the 4 PINS, is deficient, not good enough in energy transfer efficiency for critical full-range piano playback. Same problem with a Type 50.  This is COMMON Seti on many of the early ( 1930s) triode power tubes.   If a Type 45 curve traces perfectly, but can't EVER play the lower registers of a grand piano, so.....WHY use the tube ?????????????

 

A 1952 era 6005 will NOT have this problem.  A Modern EML 45 , and in general, modern DHTs such as a JJ 2A3-40, do not have this design problem.  The Sovtec 2A3 tubes you photographed ............... are bettered...... by  JJ 2A3 -40s.

 

You need to have a good amp, one with an LSES supply, and good professional, ( not commercial ) speakers, and one can hear and make such determinations - easily . 

 

I also personally think all of this measurement equipment you are now buying / restoring,  is a waste of resources.  The best sounding amps in this world, are built almost entirely by EAR and common sense logic.   In my experience, you have to listen, THINK, and what you hear is THE final judge !! 

 

Jeff   


Jeffrey, once again you are on the soapbox claiming that any amp designed by anyone other than yourself, with your power supply, is no good.  You claim to be able to hear a 0.5dB difference.  I don’t believe you!  You need to accept the fact that there are thousands of amp designs out there that are truly outstanding.  As to some of your comments about tubes, I just don’t have the time to show that much of what you say is incorrect.  
 

My advice to any tube newbies who are following this discussion is to do a lot of research, seek many opinions, and make your own decisions.  Also, run from anyone who claims that a particular tube will sound the same  regardless of the circuit in which it is used.

 

 

Maynard

 

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1 hour ago, seti said:

 

Dude take the ego down a couple pegs least ye anger the gods.

 

I CALL SHENANIGANS!!!!!!

 

 

In both Jeff and your case, bear in mind it is metaphysically absurd to think you know what another hears. In my early days here before I realized that I engaged in the speaker wire, judder, and other wars. I don't engage in any of that anymore unless I say something like "...in my experience..." or other phrase that ensures it is stated as personal opinion. For instance, I have a 150.00 Parts Express Class D amp that sounds better than any SS amp I've every heard at any price, and just as good as most tube amps. It's certainly virtually free compared to the high end in the conventional amps. But many say I am nuts or deaf. Doesn't matter, as I know what I hear. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, tube fanatic said:

My advice to any tube newbies who are following this discussion is to do a lot of research, seek many opinions, and make your own decisions.  

 

That is sound advice, other than I'd do more listening and less research.

Dave

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3 hours ago, Mallette said:

In both Jeff and your case, bear in mind it is metaphysically absurd to think you know what another hears. In my early days here before I realized that I engaged in the speaker wire, judder, and other wars. I don't engage in any of that anymore unless I say something like "...in my experience..." or other phrase that ensures it is stated as personal opinion. For instance, I have a 150.00 Parts Express Class D amp that sounds better than any SS amp I've every heard at any price, and just as good as most tube amps. It's certainly virtually free compared to the high end in the conventional amps. But many say I am nuts or deaf. Doesn't matter, as I know what I hear. 

 

 

That is sound advice, other than I'd do more listening and less research.

Dave

You are way, way behind my friend..Jeffrey can here the difference in many, many things. 2 resistors vs. 1, length of power cord, length of ICs, 8ga wire vs. Something else.

 

Unless you have Vott and 2 stage DC amp you are listening to inferior equipment.

 

So everyone on this Forum can't get to the quality of his sound because they don't have AL VOTT and they don't have a 2 stage (direct coupled) amp. When we do then we will know what we have been listening to is vastly inferior and we too can hear all these things.

 

So unless you have VOTT you are not qualified to enter the discussion.

 

 

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I love inferior designed equipment... THAT SOUNDS GOOD!

 

😛

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12 hours ago, henry4841 said:

One does not have to take someone's word on which tube is the most linear if you can read tube charts. The 300B has the most linear curves and the 45 is not far behind. Notice how well the curves are spaced apart and how the different curves taper off on the 300B. That is what you look for when talking about most linear tube. Fantastic looking if one is into such. It's all about the curves. 

 

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/084/3/300B.pdf   page 3. 

 

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/4/45.pdf  page 3

 

These are what designers look at when choosing a tube for a circuit. Same goes for an transistor. Look at the data sheets or if able test for yourself. Anyone who says different is to be ignored. 

Just for a reference here is the curves for the closet SS transistor that looks something like a triode tube. It is the curves for a SIT (static induction transistor) transistor. Most mosfet transistors go sharply horizontal instead of vertical and to the left. It mimics the triode tube somewhat but it is plain to see not as linear. This is the transistor in the Firstwatt SIT1 and SIT2 amplifiers that reviewers spoke most highly of. Compare the curves for the 300b tube with the closet SS transistor and you can immediately see the difference. Nothing has a more linear curve than the 300b tube. No ones opinion is better than cold hard facts. Most all tubes have the curves posted somewhere on the web. It is what designers look at when designing an amplifier. Most times it is listed in the data sheets. 

 

SIT%20CURVE.jpg

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3 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

So unless you have VOTT you are not qualified to enter the discussion.

No clue what you mean. I only know what I hear. 

Dave

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7 minutes ago, Mallette said:

No clue what you mean. I only know what I hear. 

Dave

I'm just restating what Mr Wedwin has been articulating over the last few days to bring you up to speed is all. 

 

1. His two stage direct coupled amp is the (or one of these best sounding amps); and

2. He has 2 Way Altec Voice of the Theater speakers with a 15" forward firing woofer in the hybrid horn cabinet; and 

3. To hear what he hears with regard to the 45 tube (broad midrange suckout), you have to have that configuration

 

I believe I have stated that fairly and accurately. 

 

The big question I'm waiting to see is if, by direct inference, or even indirect, he is going to take the next step and say anyone who does not have that amp and/or speaker system that they have inferior equipment. Time will tell.

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8 hours ago, Mallette said:

In both Jeff and your case, bear in mind it is metaphysically absurd to think you know what another hears. In my early days here before I realized that I engaged in the speaker wire, judder, and other wars. I don't engage in any of that anymore unless I say something like "...in my experience..." or other phrase that ensures it is stated as personal opinion. For instance, I have a 150.00 Parts Express Class D amp that sounds better than any SS amp I've every heard at any price, and just as good as most tube amps. It's certainly virtually free compared to the high end in the conventional amps. But many say I am nuts or deaf. Doesn't matter, as I know what I hear. 

 

 

That is sound advice, other than I'd do more listening and less research.

Dave

Some truth of course.

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11 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

I have read in numerous, numerous articles that the 300B was the most linear tube. Seems to be almost universal agreement on that, which is rather surprising.

 

I was thinking about this and the 6sn7 is very linear. It is used as the tube to calibrate a TV7 tube tester.

 

 

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Travis, 

 

That is pretty good.  EXCEPT, 

 

Please do NOT singularly over-emphasize the broad and  shallow midrange suckout -  because that really was a minor criticism, to my ear. 

 

What really disappoints me is the ST45  tube's inability to do the middle bass registers of a Grand Piano.  It is a bit thread-bare there, relative to other octaves of a piano as it plays it back on my system.  It is the ST45 tube's fault, to my ear, VS other tubes.   It has poor transfer efficiency in those harder-to-reproduce piano ranges.  As mentioned before, a modern made EML Type 45, I would guess, will not have these problems.  But that tube is far too expensive, VS its performance.  

 

2019 was a watershed DIY amp-building year for me, because of that KT88 amp build, which my Mentor put me up to do.  We wanted to see if the EH KT88 could equal or exceed his 2A3 amps. I applied new-to-audio tube build concepts there, and it ALL worked out really great, except that we misjudged the amount of gain the KT88 has, with a separate G2 supply, and zero Negative Feedback.  I also made a huge mistake putting it in a stereo chassis.  Never again.  Are there any commodity futures traded in poster board Travis???

 

I learned that an amplifier's implementation, is more important than tube choice, although, you want to use a decent tube, but with a very good implementation.  No holds barred. 

 

2019-2020 was also great speaker-wise, because I figured-out how to run the 15 inch woofer, a 515B, directly - full range, with absolutely NO crossover components on it.  The amp progress, and the direct-driving of the 515B ( up to about 2,000 Hz ),  has thrilled me, both these two system improvements. 

 

A grand piano is VERY difficult to play back.  It is one of the most difficult instruments to reproduce, versus as when heard live.  It requires instantaneous acceleration of the drivers, and truly "off-the -wall", great system "pulse" capability.  I design my amps with that in mind. 

 

It appears that it won't be till the end of this year, that I will have the time to get the KT88 stereo amplifier re-built as monoblocks, and hopefully have the new tube phono preamp up and breaking in.  I would MUCH prefer, to simply demonstrate the system, for any other interested parties to hear, than to just tell all - its as good as it gets !!! 

 

" Don't talk about the pregnancy buddy, just .....SHOW ME THE BABY !!! "

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