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Klipsch bass response heritage line and RP/RF line


Msuwendy

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13 minutes ago, Peter P. said:

I think engineers try to boost certain bass frequencies on smaller speakers to give a  better consumer impression. Some engineers try to be subtle about it so it doesn't look like they sold their souls to the Sound Devil just to sell speakers.

 

Also, I'll bet those engineers have studied consumer listening habits and concluded most people listen at much less than live sound levels. Problem is, bass levels trail off considerably at these lower levels. So they re-equalize the bass response of the speaker to sound "better" at these lower levels.

 

I think the Heritage Series doesn't make these compromises, and as a result they have the balls to sound accurate in the bass department as sound approaches live levels.

 

I remember a review of the Klipschorn in Stereo Review decades ago. While listening to material through them, the reviewer heard the sound of  a car door closing. He peaked out the drapes assuming a car had parked nearby. Instead, that sound effect is what he heard through the Klipschorns. He was amazed at the accuracy of the low frequency reproduction of that door closing through the speakers.

 

If your father can't crank his Heritage Series speakers and experience the same thing, it your room acoustics and not the speakers. An alternative solution would be to apply an equalizer to the speakers, which would probably be cheaper than a subwoofer.

Thanks a lot for the explanation i think this explain why the driver reacts on the heritage series, at first we conclude that the heritage is intended to catch the real sound of the music not to exagerate on the bass response, out of my curiosities i post on this forum to make sure

 

Thats what the second question is about, will the "cheaper" Tower version nail the big bass cause we are tired to adventure to another brand, just want klipsch with big bass hahaha i dont know if that possible

 

He's the type who loves 15inch low bass and "no bass"= add sub and big sub, he didnt like to toggle EQ for some reason he thinks that it alters the real speaker sound

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40 minutes ago, Msuwendy said:

Thanks a lot for the explanation i think this explain why the driver reacts on the heritage series, at first we conclude that the heritage is intended to catch the real sound of the music not to exagerate on the bass response, out of my curiosities i post on this forum to make sure

 

Thats what the second question is about, will the "cheaper" Tower version nail the big bass cause we are tired to adventure to another brand, just want klipsch with big bass hahaha i dont know if that possible

 

He's the type who loves 15inch low bass and "no bass"= add sub and big sub, he didnt like to toggle EQ for some reason he thinks that it alters the real speaker sound

An EQ can add unwanted distortion also. Have to play with it a little.

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1 hour ago, Peter P. said:

Also, I'll bet those engineers have studied consumer listening habits and concluded most people listen at much less than live sound levels. Problem is, bass levels trail off considerably at these lower levels. So they re-equalize the bass response of the speaker to sound "better" at these lower levels.

 

Is that also the reason why the 'loudness' button was invented? For adding bass when listening at less than live volume? 

 

So when you turn the volume to live levels, you must turn off 'loudness'. 

PSX_20200912_204053.jpg

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Most vintage gear has them.

Some would leave it off, opting for using tone controls. Think it was something like 6db boost.

Typical physical equalizer s have similar. Along with bypass of course. Done right, it sounds good at easy listening levels, and turned off when going higher volume.

Not sacred though...

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Speaking to Klipsch and bass, agree that designs were not interested in anything but authentic bass output.

Having said that, in addition, also

have come to think, they had in high consideration getting the most true bass sound as reasonable per cabinet design parameters.

A reason for purchasing a CF-1

pair were the specs on the bass.

Reading reviews helped me out.

For 6.5 inch drivers, Klipsch did a great job in the bass dept. 

Just me...

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6 hours ago, Peter P. said:

I remember a review of the Klipschorn in Stereo Review decades ago. While listening to material through them, the reviewer heard the sound of  a car door closing. He peaked out the drapes assuming a car had parked nearby. Instead, that sound effect is what he heard through the Klipschorns. He was amazed at the accuracy of the low frequency reproduction of that door closing through the speakers.

 

 I think that was the Heyser review of the Klipschorn in AUDIO magazine.

 

"Then a funny thing happened. The sound of a slammed car door sounded like a slammed car door on the K-horns, but sounded like muffled "whumps" on the "wider range" system. The same with helicopter fly-overs (quite frequent where I used to live) and with the sound of distant traffic. I never forgot that experiment nor its ear-opening ramifications with regard to sonic accuracy versus measurement. Quite true, I have listened to many excellent subwoofers that could shake the walls at 10 Hz, while the K-horn produced little sound pres- sure even an octave above that frequency. But in my personal opinion, accurate percussive bass is a specialty which a properly set up corner horn seems to have to itself."

 

@Msuwendy:

  • The room counts for a lot, as does the position in the room, and the listener's position in the room.  If either you or the speakers are sitting in a null, it can turn down the bass within a certain frequency band by quite a lot.  Google "Audio: room acoustics and nulls."
  • After getting yourself and the speakers in the best position, turn up the bass on your integrated amp, if you can.  It's possible that there are no tone controls.  If so, then consider an equalizer, IF you have a processor loop, or a way to make it work.
     
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13 hours ago, Msuwendy said:

Hi everyone

 

I need to discuss the bass response of the heritage line

 he bought the heresy IV which is the entry level of heritage series, he's pretty facinated on how the heresy produce the sound especially jazz music, but what bothers him is with the 12 inch driver, it seems to be lacking the forward bass (he used to listen to old JBL monitors speaker 4333a)

 

So my question is the bass character for the heritage line is very lain back

 

 

 

First of all , the JBL 4333A had 15 inch woofers , the bass was at 35hz , no way the Heresy 4 can do the same with a 12 inch woofer , you would need a Cornwall 4 -  

 

as far as power ,  I would say both of your speakers would benefit from more SS power, The Heresy 4 , need a 100 watts amp minimum  , the Chorus 2 ,needs clean power 150 watts ,per channel  minimum ,  it can handle 400 watts peak , and had very good bass with a higher power amplifier ------the more , the better

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51 minutes ago, RandyH000 said:

First of all , the JBL 4333A had 15 inch woofers , the bass was at 35hz , no way the Heresy 4 can do the same with a 12 inch woofer , you would need a Cornwall 4 -  

 

as far as power ,  I would say both of your speakers would benefit from more SS power, The Heresy 4 , need a 100 watts amp minimum  , the Chorus 2 ,needs  at least 150 watts , it can handle 400 watts peak , and had very good bass with a higher power amplifier ------the more , the better

That's a thousand there.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Ceptorman said:

An EQ can add unwanted distortion also. Have to play with it a little.

 

12 hours ago, ILI said:

 

Is that also the reason why the 'loudness' button was invented? For adding bass when listening at less than live volume? 

 

So when you turn the volume to live levels, you must turn off 'loudness'. 

PSX_20200912_204053.jpg

 

11 hours ago, billybob said:

Most vintage gear has them.

Some would leave it off, opting for using tone controls. Think it was something like 6db boost.

Typical physical equalizer s have similar. Along with bypass of course. Done right, it sounds good at easy listening levels, and turned off when going higher volume.

Not sacred though...

We are using 100 watt modern Cayin tube integrated so the option is not there

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11 hours ago, billybob said:

Speaking to Klipsch and bass, agree that designs were not interested in anything but authentic bass output.

Having said that, in addition, also

have come to think, they had in high consideration getting the most true bass sound as reasonable per cabinet design parameters.

A reason for purchasing a CF-1

pair were the specs on the bass.

Reading reviews helped me out.

For 6.5 inch drivers, Klipsch did a great job in the bass dept. 

Just me...

Yeah i think this might be the case the heritage line is an instrument to create the real feel of the real sound thats why they dont emphasize on extra bass

 

6 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

 I think that was the Heyser review of the Klipschorn in AUDIO magazine.

 

"Then a funny thing happened. The sound of a slammed car door sounded like a slammed car door on the K-horns, but sounded like muffled "whumps" on the "wider range" system. The same with helicopter fly-overs (quite frequent where I used to live) and with the sound of distant traffic. I never forgot that experiment nor its ear-opening ramifications with regard to sonic accuracy versus measurement. Quite true, I have listened to many excellent subwoofers that could shake the walls at 10 Hz, while the K-horn produced little sound pres- sure even an octave above that frequency. But in my personal opinion, accurate percussive bass is a specialty which a properly set up corner horn seems to have to itself."

 

@Msuwendy:

  • The room counts for a lot, as does the position in the room, and the listener's position in the room.  If either you or the speakers are sitting in a null, it can turn down the bass within a certain frequency band by quite a lot.  Google "Audio: room acoustics and nulls."
  • After getting yourself and the speakers in the best position, turn up the bass on your integrated amp, if you can.  It's possible that there are no tone controls.  If so, then consider an equalizer, IF you have a processor loop, or a way to make it work.
     

Thanks for the explanation

 

5 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

First of all , the JBL 4333A had 15 inch woofers , the bass was at 35hz , no way the Heresy 4 can do the same with a 12 inch woofer , you would need a Cornwall 4 -  

 

as far as power ,  I would say both of your speakers would benefit from more SS power, The Heresy 4 , need a 100 watts amp minimum  , the Chorus 2 ,needs clean power 150 watts ,per channel  minimum ,  it can handle 400 watts peak , and had very good bass with a higher power amplifier ------the more , the better

Hes waiting for the cornwall to come i hope he can find his old school "sound" In it

 

What amp do you recommend for the new generation? Not a vintage rig if possible

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With my CWIII I use a McIntosh C504 and MC2125 set. I have the Audax pro 15" experience which works wonderfully like your JBL 4333.

 

With Klipsch CWIII the bass is a bit weak, even if the speakers are in the corners, so I put a little level on the panoramic EQ to 30Hz of the C504 McIntosh, up to 1 or 2 db more and miraculously the bass becomes marvelous and without distortion, it is much better than with the loudness however variable on my set. I advise you Mc Intosh with equalizer 30Hz.

 

To find your happiness, modern McIntosh always have this setting at 30Hz (be careful of many manufacturers have the bass equalizer at 100Hz, it is a little too high, look for those which are at 30 or 50 Hz max)

 

 

A photo of the net of the C504, I added in color my settings on the buttons

orw1.jpg

 

 

My McIntosh set, we can guess my settings

wp15.jpg

 

 

 

😉

 

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Yeah, those Loudness controls tend to have a wide bandwith and are usually centered around 100Hz as are typical bass control knobs. My Yamaha receivers and amps come with a Variable Loudness control which allows you to tailor the bass boost effect. The manuals specifically mention the use of it at low overall volume levels to bring up lost bass levels.

 

Still ain't nothin' wrong with an equalizer to overcome your room's acoustics or your listening position (or even your personal tastes) as garyrc implies. My cheapo by audiophile standards, and ancient, Audio Control 520b can tweak the bass at 32, 60, and 120Hz and does the job unobtrusively.

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On 9/12/2020 at 5:46 AM, Msuwendy said:

Hi everyone

 

I need to discuss the bass response of the heritage line and the recent reference premier line such as the rp8000f floorstanding and the RF7 III bass response

 

Just a little background my first klipsch is the RP500M which later upgraded to RP600M as a newbie this audio world and this bookshelf have tons of bass and its very forward sounding, and the journey begins

 

So my dad is a new klipsch fanatics just this 2020, first he bought the heresy IV which is the entry level of heritage series, he's pretty facinated on how the heresy produce the sound especially jazz music, but what bothers him is with the 12 inch driver, it seems to be lacking the forward bass (he used to listen to old JBL monitors speaker 4333a) no matter where he puts it in the corner, but the detail and response leads him to buy the klipschorn 70th anniversary, and again its even amazing the soundstage, the clarity ,the detail served like its a live environment and yet again the bass response seems to be very laid back (but this will probably be the "case" Sound which can create the real Bass Drum beat which is amazing) 

 

So my question is the bass character for the heritage line is very lain back (cause i know klipsch speaker will try to recreate the live situation), my rp600m seems to have more forward bass than my dads rig, will the bigger brother rp8000f or the rf7 III have a forward bass response like in a chest kindda feeling? Recently i manage to buy Chrous 2 incredible speaker amazing, yet again the 15inch front driver and 15inch passive driver is not as "active", we like how klipsch speaker serving us the details and an efficient speaker (no need to sell kidney to buy high power amplifier) but one mystery is just the bass response

 

He use cayin 100T integrated all tube amp to run heresy 4 and i use the smaller la34 integrated all tube to run the chorus 2

 

 

Having listened to both Chorus II's and RF-7 II's (not the III's, but they both have a similar bass response) in the same room with the same amplifiers (VTA ST-120, 60 WPC tube amp, Mcintosh MC-275) I can give you this simplified description of each's bass response: The Chorus II's are room shakers, and the RF-7 II's are chest pounders. Don't get me wrong, they both shake the room and pound the chest, but they stand out in the ways I mentioned.

 

And let me say this again because I keep reading it mentioned: The Chorus II's DO NOT NEED A TON OF WATTS TO POUND. I owned Chorus II's for many years and ran them with several SS 100+ watt amps (and a 1000 watt Crown mosfet amp), and the best sound and most room-bouncing bass came from a 35 WPC Dynaco ST-70 Series II tube amplifier (which I still own). Sadly, I sold the Chorus II's.

 

And the RF-7 II's absolutely ripped the house apart with the 60WPC of the VTA and the 75WPC of the MC-275. The 8ohm impedence of Klipsch speakers is what makes them so efficient. Don't let anyone tell you any different.

 

If you and your dad are looking for that chest pounding bass, speakers with direct radiating woofers sitting up high like in the RF-7 series might be what you're looking for. If you want the accurate bass (especially the upper bass frequencies 150-500 Hz) then the horn loaded woofers of the Khorn/Lascala speakers are better. The heresy IV's are probably just too small for the bass impact and volume you're looking for.

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On 9/13/2020 at 5:57 AM, mustang_flht said:

With my CWIII I use a McIntosh C504 and MC2125 set. I

 

 

 

My McIntosh set, we can guess my setti

😉

 

this is really nice gear ----------top quality --120 watts per Channel -

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On 9/12/2020 at 7:46 AM, Msuwendy said:

So my dad is a new klipsch fanatics just this 2020, first he bought the heresy IV which is the entry level of heritage series, he's pretty facinated on how the heresy produce the sound especially jazz music, but what bothers him is with the 12 inch driver, it seems to be lacking the forward bass

The Heresy IV is down 4db at 48Hz.  They really need a sub.

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I've found that in my listening area I need to turn up the bass just a bit on the amplifier, especially at lower volumes. As others have said the bass output of some Klipsch speakers is not weak, but rather accurate, and that at higher volumes it can really come to life.

 

 

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On 9/14/2020 at 11:15 PM, MechEngVic said:

nd let me say this again because I keep reading it mentioned: The Chorus II's DO NOT NEED A TON OF WATTS TO POUND. I owned Chorus II's for many years and ran them with several SS 100+ watt amps (and a 1000 watt Crown mosfet amp), and the best sound and most room-bouncing bass came from a 35 WPC Dynaco ST-70 Series II tube amplifier (which I still own). Sadly, I sold the Chorus II's.

The neighbors in my building complained the Chorus II's were too loud when I had them playing in my studio with a 6 Watt amplifier running about 1/2 watt!

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On 9/15/2020 at 10:15 AM, MechEngVic said:

Having listened to both Chorus II's and RF-7 II's (not the III's, but they both have a similar bass response) in the same room with the same amplifiers (VTA ST-120, 60 WPC tube amp, Mcintosh MC-275) I can give you this simplified description of each's bass response: The Chorus II's are room shakers, and the RF-7 II's are chest pounders. Don't get me wrong, they both shake the room and pound the chest, but they stand out in the ways I mentioned.

 

And let me say this again because I keep reading it mentioned: The Chorus II's DO NOT NEED A TON OF WATTS TO POUND. I owned Chorus II's for many years and ran them with several SS 100+ watt amps (and a 1000 watt Crown mosfet amp), and the best sound and most room-bouncing bass came from a 35 WPC Dynaco ST-70 Series II tube amplifier (which I still own). Sadly, I sold the Chorus II's.

 

And the RF-7 II's absolutely ripped the house apart with the 60WPC of the VTA and the 75WPC of the MC-275. The 8ohm impedence of Klipsch speakers is what makes them so efficient. Don't let anyone tell you any different.

 

If you and your dad are looking for that chest pounding bass, speakers with direct radiating woofers sitting up high like in the RF-7 series might be what you're looking for. If you want the accurate bass (especially the upper bass frequencies 150-500 Hz) then the horn loaded woofers of the Khorn/Lascala speakers are better. The heresy IV's are probably just too small for the bass impact and volume you're looking for.

This is a bulls eye explanation hahaha, yeap i just demoed the RF7 3 yesh exactly its a chest pounding bass and not as huge ad chorus 2, and yesh we manage to audition loads of amplifier from ss to tubes, one thing for sure the heritage line loves tubes, my chorus 2 run 32watt full tube integrated, i do have quicksilver vintage and adcom SS power from my grandpa 300watt wpc if im not mistaken, and while the vocal seems to open up and the bass extent a little low in the chorus 2 but the overall it felt soo stiff, the 32 watt tube integrated felt just right well rounded deep bass but not as low

 

The steep pricepoint of RF7 III make us decide not to buy it maybe we'll the older two way model KG 5.2/KLF33 or RF7 II if me manage to find one

 

Thanks a lot

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Years ago, when I was using a Yamaha CR-1020 to power Audio Logic AL-750 speakers (bass reflex, dual 10” woofers and dual dome tweeters in each speaker), I wanted more realistic bass, so I got a Yamaha EQ-70 equalizer to boost the low bass.  It helped a bit, but was nowhere near the bass power I was hoping for.  If a speaker doesn’t have much low-frequency output, adding power to the weak part of its response range won’t really do much, and is not what equalizers are mainly for, which is tailoring the in-room response of speakers in the areas of their frequency response where they can really respond.

 

Back then, subwoofers were rare beasts, but now they’re easy to find, affordable, and very effective.  Today, nearly all “full-range” speakers need the help of a sub to reproduce modern (post- maybe 1955 or so) music, which has much more bass content than older tunes.

 

Another thing to consider is that modern amplifiers and receivers are more revealing than the vintage gear.  I found this out when I replaced the failed 1977 CR-1020 with a bottom-of-the-line 1998 Yamaha RX-V392, which had clarity the 1020 did not have, and now turning on the equalizer sounded like I’d thrown a blanket over the speakers.  By then, I had a small subwoofer, and that was much better at adding to the low end than the EQ-70 ever could be.  A few months later, I got a newer and bigger sub, a Paradigm PW-2100, a 10” sub with 400 watts, and I’ve never looked back.

 

A year later, I got a pair of La Scalas, and the sub really came in handy.  The old AL-750 speakers started to roll off at about 70 Hz on the low end, while the La Scalas begin their bass rolloff at around 100 Hz, so they really need a sub or two.  From the mid -bass on up, the clarity and presence of the La Scalas makes for rewarding listening that’s hard to find elsewhere, and the sub completes the audio picture.

 

I did wind up using one channel of the EQ-70 to even out the response of the sub, in a fairly successful attempt to even out the peaks and dips in its response, since the veiling effect was almost unnoticeable over the bottom few octaves..  Later, I got a newer receiver (a 2016 RX-A2060) and retired the EQ-70.  Now I have a pair of Paradigm Seismic 110s, which come with their own provision to tailor their response to the room, using a calibrated microphone and a special app from Paradigm, called Anthem Room Correction (ARC).  This kind of model-specific parametric EQ is far better than what I could get with the old 10-band graphic equalizer.

 

Hope this helps.

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