TT Pain

[Pete H]

Not trying to thread crap at all, but I do have a Technics SL1200MK2 for sale that I'm getting ready to put on ebay if anyone has an interest.  I spun 3 records on it setting up the arm and cartridge and other than that, it and the cartridge are new.  I purchased both new years ago and never placed it in any of my setups. PM me if interested.  Back to your regularly scheduled program.

[MC39693]

@Pete H no problem re the SL-1200, you’d have to drive up to Calgary for me to be in! GLWS once you post it.

 

@Islander you reminded me that I had some pin type connectors in my “project “ box.  After an hour with pliers, wrench and some terse words... pins are on the 8 awg cables in the Akai spring terminals! Not perfect but better. It sounds very good today. Getting colder in Calgary, the reading / listening room setup is going to get some use over the next 6 months unless we sell our house... then everything goes to Victoria!

 

I’m  intent on a TT connected to the AKAI in the reading room. 

 

[MC39693]

@Marvel I agree with you, if I go vintage it’s going to be direct drive. New tables in my budget are all belt drive. 

[Tarheel]

Have you looked at the new tables from Fluance Audio.  Some good reviews and not expensive. 

Look at direct drive Denons too.  I have a DP-1250 with a Rega 303 arm and it's very good.

[MC39693]

@Tarheel I have not looked at the Fluance line. I may, but if I go new it is likely either Rega or Elipson.  I had a Dual CS-608 so Dual is definitely on my radar, the right one just hasn’t come up yet.  Hoping to go look at a Luxman PD-272 this weekend, thoughts on that unit? Advertised with a Shure m92e, all in good shape recently checked by “tech”. 

[Tarheel]

Another one to check out is on usaudiomart.....a Thorens TD-165 with Ortofon cartridge and upgraded rca cables.  Located in Florida.  $400

No affiliation.

 

Yes Rega is good.  I have a Rega P3 that was said to be the best $1000 turn table.  Has the newer 303 arm.  I use a MC Hana cartridge on mine.

[MC39693]

I missed out on a second Luxman by less than a half a day.  Good grief.  Then, I saw a Sony PS-T22 with new AT3600 cart local sale, in very good shape, good price.  Had a look and well, finally the search is over ... here it is setup with the Akai AM-2800 in my small reading/listening room.  DAC and CD/DVD player also for the digital side of things.  ML LX16 on the floor, bad spacing etc. etc.  But, good for now until we can get to final home.  I hope this little DD turntable meets with the wife's approval tonight when she can listen to her Jimmy records!

 

[MC39693]

So, a little summary if there's anyone else exploring the TT purchase world.  I struggled right up until the end in deciding between used (vintage) vs new.  Pros and cons are hard to assess since they are very different, e.g. direct drive vintage TT  vs belt drive new TT, all the new connection options with new tables vs using a phono preamp only on a vintage TT.

 

My experiences with most sellers of "vintage" TT is they a) don't know what they have and they don't know the use e.g. hours on a stylus, and don't know the history of the table and haven't done any work on it, b) aren't completely transparent about state of the TT (especially the dust cover!), cartridge and/or stylus etc. c) can't / won't demo (really?) and in many cases are way over priced perhaps using the "vintage" label to try to drive up the price.

 

New tables look nice, but are plastic, MDF, messed up material of unknown origin etc.  Some don' t come with a cartridge, dust cover etc.  So you have to be sure of what you are getting.  And, in some cases they don't have interchangeable head shell, aka you are stuck with the original cartridge and will only be able to change the stylus.  Not a problem for me, I'm not going to change cartridges (likely?).  

 

In all cases, its pretty key to set your budget ahead of the chase.  It is easy to get lured into the ever upward expansion of your budget for the nice to have attribute ... carbon fibre tone arm you say, oh yeah I need that!  Once you have a budget, educate yourself on attributes, e.g. direct drive vs belt drive, types of cartridges, auto vs manual, do you want Bluetooth!  Heck Yeah.  Not so much.  Try, I didn't really succeed, to decide on used vs new, and vintage vs fancy new models.  Right up until the end, I was pretty convinced that I would end up with a new TT from a model that had just been replaced and was on significant discount.  I used that table's cost as my maximum for any vintage tables.

 

I chased a couple of Luxman PD-2XX and just missed out on them.  My advice is, that if you are going for a used/vintage TT, be decisive.  Be sure you know what you want and then if you find one, jump on it hard, the good ones go quickly.  My criteria for the used/vintage one were; a) complete and in good shape, b) recently serviced, c) new stylus, d) it had to be direct drive, e) I like a cuing lever/switch so no one drops the cartridge onto the record, f) price can't be more than a brand new table you like.  There are likely lots of other attributes and some I would say were "wants" but those above were my must haves. Oh and if it was used/vintage, I only do cash transactions AFTER a demo of all functions.  That takes out a lot of possible deals, but it has never failed me!

 

It took me maybe 6 months to get the one I bought.  I looked all across Canada, sorry the US wasn't a market I was going to chase!  I used EBay, Amazon, Kijiji and Canada Audio Mart.  I read many, many reviews of TT and cartridges.  I am amazed at the cost of some of the parts!  I just want it to sound reasonable (I have 66 year old ears!), to work reliably, and be easy to use.  I think I have achieved that ... time will tell about the reliable.  Good thing is, the seller lives near by and he's going to fix it if it breaks!  I know where he lives.

 

Thanks to all for your suggestions.  I followed up on the models proposed, some were readily available in Canada, others not so much.  Now, to increase the albums we have and enjoy them with the wife.  Thanks again to all.

Edited November 3, 2020 by MC39693
udpate.

[billybob]

Think that is good advice all the way around. Doing ones DD never a bad thing. 

Maybe a little premature but if willing, have been waiting on a small review of the Akai's phono section.

Thanks and congrats...

[MC39693]

@billybob, I’m likely the last person to provide an audio review of any value! My wife sang in competition choirs for many years, she’ll tell me if the Sony TT and Akai sound good.

 

The mystery driving force behind the Akai is nearly unrelated... I’m thinking of doing my HT with 3 vintage amps to replace my Denon x4300h. Video processing by way of Oppo 103. I just like the sound of the older SS and the fact they only manage 2 channels so never bog down. The Akai phono stage sounds fine to me and means I won’t miss the phono stage in the x4300 which I never used. 

 

I’m either doing 3 x vintage amps or, 1 x vintage integrated plus one,  3 or 4 channel power amp. I always found the x4300h lacking when pushing my Martin Logan 6 and 4 ohm speakers in a 5.2 layout. But the ML are sold and the HT will have 4 Heresy, much easier to drive! I’m trying to find a center that will come close to my ML Theater I, and will play nicely with my Heresy... I might just build a Heresy clone as I have all the drivers.

 

So, long story short, the phono 1 (the Akai has 2 phono inputs, one has adjustable resistance) on the Akai is just fine by me. I’ll add when we’ve had some additional time on the vinyl, and a slightly better setup. If you are thinking of an Akai AM amp, I can say I like its sound more than my Parasound A23 power amp. Nothing wrong with the Parasound, just more depth, more realism to the Akai. 

 

[parlophone1]

All of the issues that you wrote regarding buying a TT are to the point.

Funny thing is that most of the sellers of old aka vintage gear overprice their equipment. It is same at all markets.

MDF plinths in new TTs are not my cup of tea also. But sound-vise, nothing so bad in these especially for the price you pay.

 

Regarding phono section, I will have to try it on my AM2850 to say something meaningful.

Phonos on these old amps are usually good, even very good. For example, Kenwood M1/C1 that I have now in my setup have MM and MC phono sections. As I now play LPs via MC cart (Benz Glider) I tried that, and yes MC on Kenwood is really good as internet tells me. However, after connecting TT back to a separate phono amp, I can hear the difference for the better. Not by much but noticeable.

[MeloManiac]

For me, the true TT pain is dust. For some reason (perhaps due to air sucked into it for cooling?), my audio corner is like a dust magnet. Take a look at the pictures below, this 'dust-harvest' is literally one day old. I cleaned it all, with water, yesterday. This is  24 hours later... Driving me mad. I like my new setup, btw, with the twin powered H/K430 the crownpiece.

 

If someone could enlighten me why 'direct drive' is better than 'belt drive', please do so. Last year, I re-employed my 40 year old Onkyo turntable. The belt had literally fallen to pieces (should have made pictures of it), but I could easily find a replacement belt for €12 and fix it myself. If a direct drive tt breaks needs maintenance, it will cost a lot more, in my opinion. 

[MC39693]

@ILI, the DD value for me is based in long ago perception that they were better. Currently I’d say I’ve read as much praise for belt drive. Heck, I even have a DD laundry machine! For vintage tables I was much more used to DD and hence my interest.

 

On another topic there’s a HK PM665 for sale locally... I might go have a listen. I like the retro look of my Akai, but dual mono might be good?

[Shiva]

29 minutes ago, ILI said:

For me, the true TT pain is dust. For some reason (perhaps due to air sucked into it for cooling?), my audio corner is like a dust magnet. Take a look at the pictures below, this 'dust-harvest' is literally one day old. I cleaned it all, with water, yesterday. This is  24 hours later... Driving me mad. I like my new setup, btw, with the twin powered H/K430 the crownpiece.

 

If someone could enlighten me why 'direct drive' is better than 'belt drive', please do so. Last year, I re-employed my 40 year old Onkyo turntable. The belt had literally fallen to pieces (should have made pictures of it), but I could easily find a replacement belt for €12 and fix it myself. If a direct drive tt breaks needs maintenance, it will cost a lot more, in my opinion. 

Perhaps, it might be worthwhile to peruse the room air purifier thread.  Dust be gone.😀

 

[MeloManiac]

33 minutes ago, MC39693 said:

On another topic there’s a HK PM665 for sale locally... I might go have a listen. I like the retro look of my Akai, but dual mono might be good?

 

That HK PM 665 definitely looks interesting to me... Great looks, more connections, and dual mono. Must be the 1986 version of the h/k930, is you ask me. I didn't know of its existence 'till now, but it appears to have a really good phono stage and really good in the low frequencies. https://www.audioenmuziek.nl/audioapparatuur/de-harman-kardon-pm-665-een-oude-jeugdliefde/

 

[parlophone1]

1 hour ago, ILI said:

If someone could enlighten me why 'direct drive' is better than 'belt drive', please do so. Last year, I re-employed my 40 year old Onkyo turntable. The belt had literally fallen to pieces (should have made pictures of it), but I could easily find a replacement belt for €12 and fix it myself. If a direct drive tt breaks needs maintenance, it will cost a lot more, in my opinion. 

 

 

 

Many people will say that a good direct drive assembly will need very seldom maintenance, certainly a lot less than belt driven TTs.  Other will praise their robust build. More will talk about better speed control. There are those who appreciate their torque and speed start.

I do not have much experience with them except listening music several times played by SL1200 of several types.

 

Taking all these things aside, if a belt is accessible, changing it will not be a problem.

Both my tables are belt driven and I do not have complaints.

[MC39693]

@ILI, your comments and article are in line with what I’ve read re the HK PM665, plus it has a pre out! Sub woofer for lower frequency!

 

@parlophone1 your comments re belt vs direct drive are exactly what I think. I may be wrong but I’d rather clean, and lube a DD than play with a belt. The TT I bought was just cleaned and lubed so I should be good for a while. It’s a lower end TT but I like my chances with it and right now, it sounds just fine via the Akai AM-2800.  

 

Theres the HK PM665 and a Denon PMA-890DG both for sale locally at the same list price. Hmmm... HK is dual mono and pre out, the Denon has a digital circuit and dac. Or I just keep the Akai which looks better to me, you just can’t beat VU meters.

[billybob]

See you are doing well with the stereo Akai and TT depending upon wife's opinion. Suppose when you move, you will use same or different speakers for this system.

Since you mentioned, started to speak with you about your your vintage HT last night.

If you are going with that plan and have it mapped out as well fine.

Have a couple of questions about that.

Since going with vintage, where have you planned for central volume control for one, since alot of vintage have no remote.

 

See the Denon and Parasound is out. Thanks!

[billybob]

You know, if could just use the Akai, thinking it could well power the 4 Heresy well enough. But then there is your proposed center. Still no remote control for volume.

[MeloManiac]

23 minutes ago, MC39693 said:

@ILI, your comments and article are in line with what I’ve read re the HK PM665, plus it has a pre out! Sub woofer for lower frequency!

 

@parlophone1 your comments re belt vs direct drive are exactly what I think. I may be wrong but I’d rather clean, and lube a DD than play with a belt. The TT I bought was just cleaned and lubed so I should be good for a while. It’s a lower end TT but I like my chances with it and right now, it sounds just fine via the Akai AM-2800.  

 

Theres the HK PM665 and a Denon PMA-890DG both for sale locally at the same list price. Hmmm... HK is dual mono and pre out, the Denon has a digital circuit and dac. Or I just keep the Akai which looks better to me, you just can’t beat VU meters.

 

That Denon is Class A and has both mm/mc phono stage. It is a beast. Its power transformer alone weighs 6.3kg. https://audio-database.com/DENON-COLUMBIA/amp/pma-890dg-e.html

My advice, keep the Akai, buy both the HK PM665 and the Denon PMA-890DG. Much better investment than putting your money on the bank or investing in stocks.