Klipsch The Fives Sub Out Crossover

[nathanceb]

What frequency response do the Klipsch The Fives play if there is a subwoofer involved.

[Fidelio]

On 9/28/2020 at 11:31 PM, nathanceb said:

What frequency response do the Klipsch The Fives play if there is a subwoofer involved.

Hi, do you find an answer for this? 

[dcisive]

The Fives themselves have a characteristic roll off that begins just below 60hz gradually dropping off quite rapidly below 50hz. Sure, they have some response down in the 40hz region (open E on a bass guitar) which imparts some pretty solid bass even without the sub. But WITH a sub like I'm using the SW-100, it has a variable filter which can, when the Fives are plugged into the Sub output, begin a roll off of the Fives as high as 120hz on down. I tend to have it set around 85hz which I find most pleasing as it clears up the mids a tiny bit but allows the sub to take the workload of the lower bass frequencies. There is a 3 way setting for the Fives on their own as you may know. Which allows for a "Flat" then a "Bass Boost" so to speak setting and then the 3rd which is a "Bass Cut" The Bass cut was one many asked for and Klipsch delivered to clean up the muffle in the midrange. Having been an old audiophlle/musician/golden ear for so many years even those settings weren't enough. I ended up getting a Shitt brand DAC and using the Optical output of my Sony Bravia 75" 4K screen feeds the DAC, then into a Bellari brand 4 band EQ and then into the RCA inputs of the Fives. This has literally transformed the sound output of the Fives and SW-100. I've had some very high end systems for audio in the past. I sold high end audio in the 80's and was a loudspeaker factory rep for a while as well, so I understand this transformation. Those Fives came alive beyond belief. I sometimes have to remind me they are little guys but come on like a full sized high end speaker. The tonality, dynamics and sweetness on music I'm very familiar with from the past has blown me away. Without the DAC/EQ combo it frustrated me as it sounded cloudy in the mids and the highs were slightly muted. now there is "Air" and Dimension beyond belief. These suckers image like I never thought I'd hear again. The "Phantom Center Channel" effect is simply astounding. Movies are a unreal experience, let alone the bottom end when there are crashes or explosions and there is NO distortion, just a "You Are There" experience. I highly recommend this DAC/EQ combo to all I'm communicated with on this forum. It turns the Fives into a VERY competitive high end audio experience to be sure. The total cost of that upgrade was only $200 and worth twice or more of that for what it brings to the table. Forget about the HDMI interface it ain't gonna happen with this. But it's NO big deal as when I fire up my TV it turns the speaker system on. Sometimes I have to hit the "Phono" input to get it on but that's NO penalty for the sound quality it delivers. Needless to say you flip the switch on the back of the Fives from Phono to "Input" as I recall to enact this process. I leave the sub on "auto" for sensing when the system is on. Check it out. You'll be glad you did.

Edited April 30, 2021 by dcisive

[Yash]

On 5/1/2021 at 3:26 AM, dcisive said:

The Fives themselves have a characteristic roll off that begins just below 60hz gradually dropping off quite rapidly below 50hz. Sure, they have some response down in the 40hz region (open E on a bass guitar) which imparts some pretty solid bass even without the sub. But WITH a sub like I'm using the SW-100, it has a variable filter which can, when the Fives are plugged into the Sub output, begin a roll off of the Fives as high as 120hz on down. I tend to have it set around 85hz which I find most pleasing as it clears up the mids a tiny bit but allows the sub to take the workload of the lower bass frequencies. There is a 3 way setting for the Fives on their own as you may know. Which allows for a "Flat" then a "Bass Boost" so to speak setting and then the 3rd which is a "Bass Cut" The Bass cut was one many asked for and Klipsch delivered to clean up the muffle in the midrange. Having been an old audiophlle/musician/golden ear for so many years even those settings weren't enough. I ended up getting a Shitt brand DAC and using the Optical output of my Sony Bravia 75" 4K screen feeds the DAC, then into a Bellari brand 4 band EQ and then into the RCA inputs of the Fives. This has literally transformed the sound output of the Fives and SW-100. I've had some very high end systems for audio in the past. I sold high end audio in the 80's and was a loudspeaker factory rep for a while as well, so I understand this transformation. Those Fives came alive beyond belief. I sometimes have to remind me they are little guys but come on like a full sized high end speaker. The tonality, dynamics and sweetness on music I'm very familiar with from the past has blown me away. Without the DAC/EQ combo it frustrated me as it sounded cloudy in the mids and the highs were slightly muted. now there is "Air" and Dimension beyond belief. These suckers image like I never thought I'd hear again. The "Phantom Center Channel" effect is simply astounding. Movies are a unreal experience, let alone the bottom end when there are crashes or explosions and there is NO distortion, just a "You Are There" experience. I highly recommend this DAC/EQ combo to all I'm communicated with on this forum. It turns the Fives into a VERY competitive high end audio experience to be sure. The total cost of that upgrade was only $200 and worth twice or more of that for what it brings to the table. Forget about the HDMI interface it ain't gonna happen with this. But it's NO big deal as when I fire up my TV it turns the speaker system on. Sometimes I have to hit the "Phono" input to get it on but that's NO penalty for the sound quality it delivers. Needless to say you flip the switch on the back of the Fives from Phono to "Input" as I recall to enact this process. I leave the sub on "auto" for sensing when the system is on. Check it out. You'll be glad you did.

Could you share the specific model of your dac please?

[Yash]

49 minutes ago, Yash said:

Could you share the specific model of your dac please?

So I have a very similar connection to yours. Samsung TU8000 optical out to my R-41PM. However the dialogue is very Low and I am unable to do anything about it. The only settings I have on my tv is PCM and I am unable to change the audio settings to 2ch on my apps such as Netflix or Apple TV.  So after reading you comment I thought maybe a dac would solve this problem and provide 2 ch input to my speakers.

[dcisive]

I'm using a Shitt Loki model DAC and it's wonderful. You actually do need to have a TV set to the PCM output for proper operation of the DAC. I also highly recommend either their EQ or the Bellari I'm using. It sure makes the vocal range clearer and the high end truly comes alive as well. The so called "Phantom Center Channel" I refer to is a pure result of the enhanced sound and imaging of the Fives I have through this setup mentioned. So much better then the previous 2 center channel systems I used. Netflix movies are freaking outstanding in their sonic qualities. Especially action movies. 

[Fidelio]

On 5/8/2021 at 2:23 PM, dcisive said:

I'm using a Shitt Loki model DAC

Matybe is the "modi" your're talking about? the loki is a 4 band EQ as well

[Fidelio]

On 4/30/2021 at 3:26 PM, dcisive said:

The Fives themselves have a characteristic roll off that begins just below 60hz gradually dropping off quite rapidly below 50hz. Sure, they have some response down in the 40hz region (open E on a bass guitar) which imparts some pretty solid bass even without the sub. But WITH a sub like I'm using the SW-100, it has a variable filter which can, when the Fives are plugged into the Sub output, begin a roll off of the Fives as high as 120hz on down. I tend to have it set around 85hz which I find most pleasing as it clears up the mids a tiny bit but allows the sub to take the workload of the lower bass frequencies. There is a 3 way setting for the Fives on their own as you may know. Which allows for a "Flat" then a "Bass Boost" so to speak setting and then the 3rd which is a "Bass Cut" The Bass cut was one many asked for and Klipsch delivered to clean up the muffle in the midrange. Having been an old audiophlle/musician/golden ear for so many years even those settings weren't enough. I ended up getting a Shitt brand DAC and using the Optical output of my Sony Bravia 75" 4K screen feeds the DAC, then into a Bellari brand 4 band EQ and then into the RCA inputs of the Fives. This has literally transformed the sound output of the Fives and SW-100. I've had some very high end systems for audio in the past. I sold high end audio in the 80's and was a loudspeaker factory rep for a while as well, so I understand this transformation. Those Fives came alive beyond belief. I sometimes have to remind me they are little guys but come on like a full sized high end speaker. The tonality, dynamics and sweetness on music I'm very familiar with from the past has blown me away. Without the DAC/EQ combo it frustrated me as it sounded cloudy in the mids and the highs were slightly muted. now there is "Air" and Dimension beyond belief. These suckers image like I never thought I'd hear again. The "Phantom Center Channel" effect is simply astounding. Movies are a unreal experience, let alone the bottom end when there are crashes or explosions and there is NO distortion, just a "You Are There" experience. I highly recommend this DAC/EQ combo to all I'm communicated with on this forum. It turns the Fives into a VERY competitive high end audio experience to be sure. The total cost of that upgrade was only $200 and worth twice or more of that for what it brings to the table. Forget about the HDMI interface it ain't gonna happen with this. But it's NO big deal as when I fire up my TV it turns the speaker system on. Sometimes I have to hit the "Phono" input to get it on but that's NO penalty for the sound quality it delivers. Needless to say you flip the switch on the back of the Fives from Phono to "Input" as I recall to enact this process. I leave the sub on "auto" for sensing when the system is on. Check it out. You'll be glad you did.

 

Thanks for this, it's really valuable info. I also got a sub for my fives recently. I was trying to buy the RS-120W on a really good price, but amazon cancel my buy. Finally I end up with an entry level Elac 10 inch subwoofer. It's Ok, but it doest'n have any filters or features other than the volume/crossover settings. 

The sub sometimes seems too boomy (hence I wanted to find a sweet spot for the crossover), but most of the time the soud really has improved. Much more clean mids and the details on highs has finally appear!. Nevertheless, i'm not totally satisfied yet. I't remains some kind recesion on the mids, like the voices seems distant and not totally opened. The higs are much more there but they seems opaque and metallic, laking air and bright. 

EQ seems to be the only solution. I've contemplate your Bellari solution, but also I've been diging into a miniDSP unit. Do yo know something about this?.

I was keen into adding a good DAC too,  but I get in contact with Klipsch support team and they tell me there's no way at all to by pass the DAC/DSP system of the five. Any input info has to pass through it.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Fidelio

[dcisive]

Yeah sorry bout that indeed it's the Modi. I almost bought the Loki EQ but opted instead for the Bellari as I'd read too much about the Bellari making a greater impact overall on the higher end and mids. I wouldn't go with a lessor DAC then the Modi for sure. It's only $100 and pays dividends in sonic quality without compromises. The Bellari, as I mentioned opened up the top end wonderfully well adding the clean air that was not present before. The imaging gains hugely from this alone. Backing off on if I recall the 400hz range on the Bellari gets rid of that annoying muddy midrange character and allows it to be nice and clear retaining it's true character. I'm still hoping (and praying) that the so called promised EQ that I was told by a Klipsch rep was in the works for their DSP Firmware update this year will actually happen. My perfect world would be at least 7 bands to be able to adjust (such as 60hz, 250hz, 500hz, 2000hz, 4000hz, 6000hz and 10,000hz. This way I could then just use the dedicated HDMI input (which I originally bought the Fives for) and no longer worry about the tonal adjustments, let alone it would be as pure as possible using the DSP. I can hope and pray I guess. We shall see. A 5 band would be the minimum in my opinion. Say 60hz 250hz, 500hz, 4000hz and 8000hz. Let's keep praying......

[Fidelio]

15 hours ago, dcisive said:

I wouldn't go with a lessor DAC then the Modi

I got a bluesound node 2i streamer on it's way. It's supposed to have a pretty good dac built in, so I thinking using it as a preamp for TV and other sources. Do you thing this could do the same job as your modi placed before the Bellari?. It worries me Klipsch's statement about the fives built in DAC don't be able to be bypassed in any way.  

With all this limitations, I'm on my knees for that unfamous EQ app, but i'm also starting to lose hope on it.

[dcisive]

I hear ya Fidelio. Patience never was my strong suit and I'm thinking they are in no hurry to release that EQ firmware update that was promised. Inexpensive DAC's however have some compromise issues in terms of the chips used for the processes and that's where I chose to not compromise. The Shitt brand is run by two former high end audiophile product engineers so they know their stuff. The cheap product out there will most certainly not deliver the higher levels of audio output of the Shitt and some others. As for the concept of a "bypass" understand that one is feeding the DAC from the Optical output of their flat screen which is quite high end pure. You are not feeding it the HDMI hence dealing with in speaker processing, which is a good thing. So the pure Optical output goes right into the DAC and is cleanly processed into a analog signal, then on to the Bellari EQ's RCA inputs. Then out the Bellari's RCA outputs into the back of the Fives "Phono" input but make sure you switch that flip switch at that input to the "Input" and not leave it on Phono. The only thing that's a bit of a hassle (but I'm over it) is when you fire up the TV, mine for example does sense the input and the power light on top by the volume lights up. But most often I find I need to hit the Phono button on the remote to get it to the right input. From there it's perfection. The SW-100 sub I have attached to the Sub output will sense the power within a minute and I'm off to the races. Not as perfect from the automation angle as when used from the HDMI, but it's not a big deal. Certainly WELL worth the sonic advantages. I could never go back to the HDMI un equalized sound quality that's for sure. Here's still to hopes and prayers Klipsch engineers are still hard at work developing that 5-7 band (or more) firmware update EQ. It will turn an excellent speaker system into a simply uncompromised outstanding sonic wonder! Which with my current add on setup it IS!

[Fidelio]

5 hours ago, dcisive said:

As for the concept of a "bypass" understand that one is feeding the DAC from the Optical output of their flat screen which is quite high end pure. You are not feeding it the HDMI hence dealing with in speaker processing, which is a good thing. So the pure Optical output goes right into the DAC and is cleanly processed into a analog signal, then on to the Bellari EQ's RCA inputs. Then out the Bellari's RCA outputs into the back of the Fives "Phono" input but make sure you switch that flip switch at that input to the "Input" and not leave it on Phono.

I can understand this process. But in klipsch's support guys opinion, even when one is feeding the five trough RCA line input, it's not the analog converted signal from an external DAC what you're hearing. Any signal, feeded to the fives either through digital inputs or through RCA line, it's always processed for the DSP/DAC system, first into a digital signal then into an analog one by the work of the built in DAC. So any analog signal inputed necesarally go into DSP to once again be converted in digital data, before the built in DAC make it an analog signal again.

I have a lots o doubts about this, as I've noted very clear differences when a same source is connected throug RCA or USB by example. 

I was very precise asking about this. They even told me that MQA files are not supported in any way by the spekers for the same reasons, even when your source can full decode that kind of files.

Any way, the good news is that they confirm me that de EQ featur will definitly be developed sometime in the future. These are his exact words: "I’m sorry, that information is not currently available. But yes I know for sure we are getting the EQ feature in a near future Firmware update as well as other updates, But don't have an exact date for that"

So I hope this bring a little hope to anyone waiting for that so needed feature.

[dcisive]

Let me just say that while what you're saying about the Five's DAC process may well be true, all I can say for certain is the Shitt's DAC fed into the Bellari EQ then onto the Fives RCA input for the Phono with the switch set to Line makes a TON of difference making it true HiFi to me as the midrange is no longer stuffy but clear and distinct and the high end opens up a TONE giving air and imaging galore. I too heard from a rep a few months ago that the EQ Firmware update was expected in year 2021, so THIS year. But no date set such as say September or December who knows. Not only that but there was NO specifics given as to if it would allow for a Custom setting by the user, and also how many bands we would have to work with. It had better be a minimum of 5 but better yet 7 or 10. And it MUST (and I mean MUST) have control over the 400hz or 500hz region to clean up the midrange. Also be able to add that critical air at the 8k to 10k range if not even higher. We shall see. I'm totally prepared to be able to leave my system as it is with the mods mentioned as it's essentially perfect now so I'm not missing anything. Sure, if they do what I'm asking then I'll switch back to the HDMI method of actuation. But I'm not betting the farm they will do it that way.

[Fidelio]

On 5/13/2021 at 10:49 PM, dcisive said:

all I can say for certain is the Shitt's DAC fed into the Bellari EQ then onto the Fives RCA input for the Phono with the switch set to Line makes a TON of difference making it true HiFi to me as the midrange is no longer stuffy but clear and distinct and the high end opens up a TONE giving air and imaging galore.

I do believe this is true, no doubt about it. I've had this experience too, listening real difference between digital sources (hence DACs) and trough different inputs on the fives. There's a lot of people also claiming reaching out sustancial improvement using external phono stages for their turntables.

How could this be possible if everything end up on the same blender before the output? Maybe I need to dig more into DSP functioning, but this is a mistery for me. 

[Yash]

On 5/9/2021 at 2:23 AM, dcisive said:

I'm using a Shitt Loki model DAC and it's wonderful. You actually do need to have a TV set to the PCM output for proper operation of the DAC. I also highly recommend either their EQ or the Bellari I'm using. It sure makes the vocal range clearer and the high end truly comes alive as well. The so called "Phantom Center Channel" I refer to is a pure result of the enhanced sound and imaging of the Fives I have through this setup mentioned. So much better then the previous 2 center channel systems I used. Netflix movies are freaking outstanding in their sonic qualities. Especially action movies. 

Thanks i took your advise and purchased. The Shitt Modi 3 DAC and Bellari EQ arrived this week and i am going to try them over the weekend. For some strange reason my dialogue issue with the speakers has been solved. I think i changed some settings on the subwoofer crossover. But i'm still excited to see how the the DAC and EQ makes a difference to the sound. Can you share what settings you have on the EQ? 

 

Cheers

Yash

[dcisive]

Sure I'd love to. The 7500hz dial I have pretty much ALL the way up, the 2000hz dial is just a literal pinch to the right/positive hardly at all otherwise it can make a cone like character to the voice and you want to avoid that, so like I said just a pinch. Now the 400hz one is VERY critical and may well be THE most influential one to get rid of that annoying muffled chesty sound in the midrange that nearly every speaker on the planet is guilty of, especially in most rooms. I have my 400hz set to negative what would look a bit like say 10 o'clock if you will on the dial. I've found this is just about perfect. I leave the 60hz alone and straight up as I have the SW-100 sub and it's all handled there just fine. I'm confident you WILL see a significant cleaning up of your sound with these settings and the hardware like mine you've gotten. I remind all to make sure to use the Optical out of your TV and make sure your TV is set to PCM output. If you are using a subwoofer there is NO need to adjust the various software settings on the Fives bass it is handled once you plug the sub into the sub output of the speaker. On the RCA outputs of the Bellari go to the RCA Phono inputs and make sure the switch is selected to "LINE" of course. You're then good to go. I leave my DAC and Bellari EQ on all the time as it's so much easier. What do find is that when I switch on my TV while it does trigger the speakers power on, I have to select the Phono input as it still thinks it's the HDMI. Other than that's is so very worth the sound quality improvements I don't even mind the turning on process of the TV. Who knows, maybe we'll all luck out and when/if Klipsch finally released their software/eq update that it is good enough (at least 5 and better yet 7 bands) and we can go back to using the HDMI input once again as it was originally intended. I'm still hoping. 

[Yash]

On 6/7/2021 at 3:18 AM, dcisive said:

Sure I'd love to. The 7500hz dial I have pretty much ALL the way up, the 2000hz dial is just a literal pinch to the right/positive hardly at all otherwise it can make a cone like character to the voice and you want to avoid that, so like I said just a pinch. Now the 400hz one is VERY critical and may well be THE most influential one to get rid of that annoying muffled chesty sound in the midrange that nearly every speaker on the planet is guilty of, especially in most rooms. I have my 400hz set to negative what would look a bit like say 10 o'clock if you will on the dial. I've found this is just about perfect. I leave the 60hz alone and straight up as I have the SW-100 sub and it's all handled there just fine. I'm confident you WILL see a significant cleaning up of your sound with these settings and the hardware like mine you've gotten. I remind all to make sure to use the Optical out of your TV and make sure your TV is set to PCM output. If you are using a subwoofer there is NO need to adjust the various software settings on the Fives bass it is handled once you plug the sub into the sub output of the speaker. On the RCA outputs of the Bellari go to the RCA Phono inputs and make sure the switch is selected to "LINE" of course. You're then good to go. I leave my DAC and Bellari EQ on all the time as it's so much easier. What do find is that when I switch on my TV while it does trigger the speakers power on, I have to select the Phono input as it still thinks it's the HDMI. Other than that's is so very worth the sound quality improvements I don't even mind the turning on process of the TV. Who knows, maybe we'll all luck out and when/if Klipsch finally released their software/eq update that it is good enough (at least 5 and better yet 7 bands) and we can go back to using the HDMI input once again as it was originally intended. I'm still hoping. 

Hey how are you doing?

 

 Been quite happy with my DAC and EQ config I wanted to ask what do you do when the bass is just too heavy on certain songs. Do reduce the 60Hz knob on the EQ or reduce the sub volume on the remote control? 

[Yash]

Just now, Yash said:

Hey how are you doing?

 

 Been quite happy with my DAC and EQ config I wanted to ask what do you do when the bass is just too heavy on certain songs. Do reduce the 60Hz knob on the EQ or reduce the sub volume on the remote control? 

Also while trying to find this thread i read some other threads where you mentioned about using the Exciter SE560. Have you replaced the EQ with the Exciter and found that works better? Or are you using both? 

[dcisive]

Any adjustments regarding the bass end of things I make with my remote hitting the reduction for the sub a notch or worst case 2. That seems to tame things very nicely without effecting any other aspect of the sound character. As for the Exciter I did try it. At first I felt it offered a significant improvement. Until I evaluated it with a lot of music I knew to be exquisitely well mixed (I've been a recording engineer so have a clue about the sonic character a speaker should have). I then felt the Exciter added some harshness which I felt really grated on me. An exciter adds odd order harmonics to fool the ear into better definition. But it is at the price of a natural richness. When I hooked up the Belari EQ and made my quick adjustments and evaluated it with those well mixed musical pieces I'd been familiar with for years, it was like "ahhhhhhhhh" the purity and honesty was there but better definition and "air" was obviously apparent without any distortion or annoying artifacts the Exciter produced. So no doubt about it that DAC coupled with that EQ is making it happen. But indeed if the day comes this year (as so called promised by Klipsch) that they put out the software update giving us our EQ (it had better be 5 or more bands to work with) then the Five's will reach their pinnacle. Until then at least I get to hear them as they SHOULD sound, just not through the HDMI port as was originally intended. It makes my wife crazy as she can't seem to figure out that the audio isn't any longer available on the Sony remote and needs to hit the Phono input on the small Klipsch remote to get it happening. Perhaps the day is fast approaching I can get it back to normal for her.