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Klipsch Missing Boat w/o "Heritage Subs?


jdmccall

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6 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I don't think you're alone. 

 

However, I do see a lot of people owning Heritage with very small listening rooms that get away with little direct radiating subwoofers, because their listening room is less than half a wavelength in every direction at frequencies below 40 Hz (i.e., 28 feet).  You're into the "pressure zone" operation of the subwoofers, and as long as you don't need to use the sub very much while playing music, then you might provide a little deep bass effect. 

 

But note that I see a lot of people talk about "turning their subwoofers off for music".  That says to me that the subwoofers they are using have too much distortion, and therefore they turn them off when sound quality matters.

 

I don't turn my two tapped horn subs off at anytime the system is on--unless measuring using REW a single loudspeaker. 

 

Chris

 

I've tried and listened to lots of subs with horns. It is hard. Bruce Edgars refridgerator sized sub was the first I heard that was any good. Then the kpt884, 1802, and 1502 are among the best I've heard. My room is music only and the number of subs I've kicked out are numerous. You can't fight physics 8-)

 

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27 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

Fwiw, it seems the OPs main concern is horn-loaded sub size vs what is practical for most end users who still want the best quality they can have. That's my take.

Yes--I understand that.

 

Chris

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2 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

Fwiw, it seems the OPs main concern is horn-loaded sub size vs what is practical for most end users who still want the best quality they can have. That's my take.

I thought the OP was more interested in a sub that matched the Heritage Series appearance-wise; wood veneered cabinets, matching grill cloth, etc.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Peter P. said:

I thought the OP was more interested in a sub that matched the Heritage Series appearance-wise; wood veneered cabinets, matching grill cloth, etc.

 

 

 

On 10/22/2020 at 12:21 AM, jdmccall said:

I'm not thinking horn subs.  Too big for about 99.9% of the human race according to a study that was never done.  Too big even for most klipschorn and la scala owners, someone may have once said.  No, I'm thinking vented or sealed, big as needed with very powerful class D amp.  There's many great subs out there that would be quite satisfactory, performance-wise.  But they don't look the part.  They need to look like Klipsch Heritage.  Klipsch could do it so easily, I would think...and I have zero experience in the audio industry, so I should know!

 

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So...I guess nothing but a horn-loaded sub the size of refrigerator will be acceptable to some Heritage owners.  OK, that niche within a niche within a niche market would appear to be served  satisfactorily by commercial horn subs that are available.  But for the rest of us, what is there?  SVS, HSU, Rythmik, REL, JL Audio and no doubt others.  But none look like Klipsch Heritage, and that is the point.  I'd like for Klipsch to build me a high-performance, non-horn sub that would look and work well with Heritage speakers.  Yes, I know I'm talking about a product that doesn't exist, and that is precisely the point.  I would love for it to exist.

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Interesting read so far.  Here's more fuel for the fire...

 

It would be neat for Klipsch to build a cosmetically matching sub for the heritage line.  I'm thinking several models, perhaps one with a 15" , a double 15" and one with an 18" .  Direct radiating speakers in a rock solid cabinet! Then, you could decide if you want one or two...or more to match your needs. I would opt for an external dedicated sub amp/processor to match with the subs.  Maybe something in the 500-1k watt amp range.  This way you could add your own brand of amplification and processing if you so desire, making for an extremely flexible system that would appeal to the tinkerers!

 

For those that swear they need a horn loaded sub...why?  Horn loading for tweeters and maybe even mids are great if done right, but for a sub, it's antiquated.  Sure, they are supper efficient, but they are huge, and not practical unless your room is the size of a small gym!  Back in the day you needed the horn design to get concert level volumes because both amplifier design and actual driver design were nowhere near where they are today. So, you had to squeeze every little bit of efficiency out of a system you could.  Now, we have amps with tons of power and driver designs that are leaps and bounds ahead of where we were when horns were being commonly used.

 

Just look at your live concert sound.  You used to have horn loaded sub scoops that held 2 15" drivers that were the size of a small car!  Then, came along more powerful amps and better  driver technology... Think EV MTL 4 concert subs and crown macrotech amps.  You had 4 18" subs in a 3' by 3' by 3' enclosure that totally killed the sub scoop at a fraction of it's size.  Much better for sound companies to haul around... and even for permanent installs.  The last concert I went to used all line arrays.... no huge horn subs.

 

Now, on to home use.  Sure, you could build a horn loaded sub, but why?  It's size would be ridiculous! (Not to mention it's size would be the equivalent of a guy in his 50's buying a vette....compensate much?)  But I understand, to a point at least, dudes like to showcase their equipment... but when it takes up a whole 40ft wall, it's just tacky!  I want something to look good too! Furthermore, the material and labor needed to build the enormous cabinet would be expensive.  Therefore, a company would have to charge a lot more than a competitor whose direct radiating sub that puts out the same SPL and sound quality at a fraction of the size.  Who do you think will sell more and stay in business?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Iteachstem said:

Interesting read so far.  Here's more fuel for the fire...

All right!  Now we're cookin'!

 

Have you seen current Parts Express sub kits and drivers?  They have a lot interesting options for do-able amounts of money.  And since they're in kit form, sky's the limit as far as finishing them to mate well with Heritage.  Here's an example:

image.png.f488b5016e0d02263ba616a88d84e2d4.png   18" driver, 4 cubic ft. sealed enclosure, no amp or x/o.......app $509.

 

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5 hours ago, Iteachstem said:

Thoughts?

If you really do "teach STEM", I'll refer you to the laws of physics and Hofmann's Iron Law--extended to Paul Klipsch's focus on low distortion.  He was the person that designed each of the loudspeakers in the Heritage line and he understood this point better than anyone else.  However, you apparently don't.  I do recommend educating yourself in this area, complete with hearing the differences.  PWK insisted on that last point.  The Heritage line exists today because sound quality was the original requirement--and still is.  Just ask the man that designed the Cornwall IV. 

 

Of all things to do in this world, the OP proposes to cheapen the brand itself.  If you want to call it a Cornwall- or Heresy-compatible subwoofer, that's your prerogative.  Just don't try to call it "Heritage"...or even "hi-fi".  It's not.

 

Chris

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15 hours ago, Peter P. said:

I thought the OP was more interested in a sub that matched the Heritage Series appearance-wise; wood veneered cabinets, matching grill cloth, etc.

That is my thought and I totally agree.  Even "matching" surrounds would be cool, mini La Scalas, Cornwalls, etc.

 

Bill

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

If you want to call it a Cornwall- or Heresy-compatible subwoofer, that's your prerogative.  Just don't try to call it "Heritage"...or even "hi-fi".  It's not.

How about "Heritage inspired" with matching veneers and mesh grills.  Similar to this SW-12II on the left.

 

Klipsch SW-12 II Subwoofer Walnut - $200 *SOLD* - Garage Sale - The Klipsch  Audio Community  Tweed Heresy grills - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community

 

Even the outboard amp could be "retro" in appearance.

 

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier headphone amp/DAC | Hi-Fi News

 

Bill

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Why are you guys interested in a loudspeaker that "looks like" Heritage? 

 

Loudspeakers are there to reproduce recordings, not "look like" other loudspeakers.  That's very odd.

 

I remember that Ford tried that in the 1970s and perhaps early 1980s with Mercedes Benz models.  I can't exactly remember the name for sure (Granada?). It wasn't a Mercedes by any stretch.  I typically cringed when I pulled up behind one at a stop light, thinking about the people inside driving one of them--with the vision perhaps of driving a real Mercedes instead.  I hope that I don't have to take that thought further to illustrate my point.

 

EDIT: I've known several guys over the years that married because of the way their spouses looked--almost exclusively.  None of them are married to them very long.

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, willland said:

That is my thought and I totally agree.  Even "matching" surrounds would be cool, mini La Scalas, Cornwalls, etc.

 

Bill

 

Perhaps not exactly what you meant... but is what you described!  (little LaScalas aren't mine, I don't recall who made them)

 

Here's a thought on the "Heritage Subwoofer" idea....  those speakers that PWK designed are what's designated "Heritage".  Since he didn't design (as best I know) a subwoofer and is not likely to now ever design one....  I'd postulate that there could never be a genuine "Heritage" subwoofer.

 

 

Jay-Mini-La-Scala-v03-social.jpg

Jay-Mini-La-Scala-1-blog-hero.jpg

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Okay, how about a sub that cosmetically matches Heritage designs that would visually look nice in a room with retro/vintage Heritage speakers.

 

Talking about splitting hairs.:unsure:

 

4 minutes ago, Coytee said:

Perhaps not exactly what you meant... but is what you described!  (little LaScalas aren't mine, I don't recall who made them)

Now wouldn't a larger(Heresy size) version of those look cool on the side walls with La Scala triplets up front?

 

Bill

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Decades ago, when I was (casually) looking around for a subwoofer, those I saw at the local stereo stores would not have (then) stood a chance to keep up with my LaScalas.  I had my EV Interface D's that had a -3 db@ 28 Hz @ 106 db's (if I recall the stats correctly) and it would add sufficient bottom end BUT, you could always tell when it was on.  I never knew how to describe what I was hearing and am still a bit at a loss....  but as nice of a speaker as the D's were, they were still mushy in the bass department compared to the taut articulation of the LaScalas.

 

Just seems to me if you are wanting a sub that will keep up with the pressurization of a room like a Khorn can....and want it done at Sub levels....  it's simply going to have to be very large.

 

There is however, a reason I don't design these things and ignorance would be high upon that list!!

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16 hours ago, Edgar said:

 

I drew up this concept in 1998:

Corner Horns.png

I've seen variations on that.  Horn subs mounted in the attic with the mouth in the corners or where 2 walls meet.  I didnt go to that extreme but did go with an IB.  Certainly saves floor space.  Sounds good too. 

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28 minutes ago, Coytee said:

Just seems to me if you are wanting a sub that will keep up with the pressurization of a room like a Khorn can....and want it done at Sub levels....  it's simply going to have to be very large.

While I totally agree here, any of you folks who has ever visited Groomlakearea51's(Marshall) "Wall of Voodoo" room may know what I am talking about.  The last time I visited him which was at least 9+ years ago, he had added a tiny 8" XW-300D subwoofer to the crazy mix of Khorns, Heresys, and a Belle, and I was astonished how that little sub filled in the gap(-3dB@28Hz) below the Khorns.  Of course I am not talking 120dB at 20Hz here.  Sounds crazy but I could not believe how seamless it was.

 

Best Buy: Klipsch Icon 8" 480W Powered Subwoofer XW-300D

 

Bill

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