Edgar Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 17 minutes ago, Chris A said: This is something that virtually no one discusses, but there is a difference in infrasonic bass quality, and its name is "phase". One of the things that Toole describes is the audibility of phase shift at very low frequencies: So if you can keep the phase growth under control at the lowest frequencies, there is a payoff...a pretty big one. I've experienced that effect most strongly after I flattened the overall phase of the Jubs and K-402-MEH. I had to go back at attenuate the bass in my demastered tracks due to this effect. I can attest to this, but only indirectly. In the past, I equalized my Legacy Focus to approximately 25 Hz using PEQ. The amplitude was reasonably flat, but the phase was anybody's guess. More recently, I computed the actual box transfer function and mathematically equalized it to a true 30 Hz 4th-order Butterworth response using DSP. Even though the Butterworth response cuts-off ¼ octave higher, the bass is subjectively deeper and more "natural", for lack of a better term. With the PEQ filter, the bass sounded like a speaker. With the Butterworth filter, the bass sounds like music. I wish that I had better words with which to describe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 36 minutes ago, Edgar said: I wish that I had better words with which to describe it Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iteachstem Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 13 hours ago, Chris A said: f you really do "teach STEM", I'll refer you to the laws of physics and Hofmann's Iron Law--extended to Paul Klipsch's focus on low distortion. He was the person that designed each of the loudspeakers in the Heritage line and he understood this point better than anyone else. However, you apparently don't. I do recommend educating yourself in this area, complete with hearing the differences. PWK insisted on that last point. The Heritage line exists today because sound quality was the original requirement--and still is. Just ask the man that designed the Cornwall IV. Of all things to do in this world, the OP proposes to cheapen the brand itself. If you want to call it a Cornwall- or Heresy-compatible subwoofer, that's your prerogative. Just don't try to call it "Heritage"...or even "hi-fi". It's not. Chris I understand the laws pretty well. Don't get your panties in a bunch! I'm not arguing that a horn loaded sub wouldn't sound awesome with very little distortion. I am saying that it's pointless because of the amount of space it takes up... it's not practical for almost everyone in a home setting. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codewritinfool Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 41 minutes ago, Iteachstem said: I understand the laws pretty well. Don't get your panties in a bunch! I'm not arguing that a horn loaded sub wouldn't sound awesome with very little distortion. I am saying that it's pointless because of the amount of space it takes up... it's not practical for almost everyone in a home setting. You can make it a bit more practical if you make them pillars, in this example the THTLP: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iteachstem Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 hour ago, codewritinfool said: You can make it a bit more practical if you make them pillars I do like those... they are much less hideous. And for some, that will be a great option. However, I think the whole idea of this thread was to have subwoofers that cosmetically match the Heritage line of speakers. I would still opt for a smaller swarm setup... http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdmccall Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 I like the "swarm" idea, too. Multiple small-ish subs of suitably high output that can go cleanly down below 30Hz. (Personally, I don't worry too much about sub 30Hz reproduction.) Place the subs strategically to get flattest response and though they may not match the max output capability of the mains, they will do pretty darned well for the most part. And if you are adding bass that otherwise would not be reproduced at all, then I think that's a good thing, even if it isn't as low distortion as a horn might be. If Klipsch was to market a line of Heritage-branded subs, it bothers me not one bit that they weren't designed by PWK. If you want to say they're not "real Heritage", I say you're right, but so what? I don't consider Forte and Chorus "real" Heritage either. And I sure don't consider any sound bar or bluetooth speaker Heritage. But apparently Klipsch does and that's fine. They can do whatever they want. I just want subs, and yeah sure, even surrounds, to as much as possible be a great sonic and style match for Heritage speakers. I think if they succeeded on both counts they'd make some money and a lot of Klipsch Heritage fans would be pleased. Just not too many who frequent this forum.🙂 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 On 10/23/2020 at 1:02 PM, Edgar said: You could fit a pretty good direct-radiator subwoofer into a Cornwall-sized box. I've actually been experimenting with design possibilities. My idea of what a Cornwall-shaped subwoofer might look like. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockhound Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 38 minutes ago, Edgar said: My idea of what a Cornwall-shaped subwoofer might look like. or have the ports the same as the new ports on the cornwall 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, rockhound said: or have the ports the same as the new ports on the cornwall 4. That's difficult to do. In order to tune the enclosure to 20 Hz or below, and at the same time to maintain sufficient port area to prevent chuffing, the port tube has to be extremely long. (See some of the GSG designs for examples.) The three tractrix ports on the real Cornwall don't have sufficient area. Increase their number enough to make the port area large enough, and mount some on the front and the rest on the back of the enclosure, and there isn't enough room inside the enclosure for the required port length without excessive folding, which makes construction difficult. Arranging them in a two-dimensional array makes it all even more complicated. Loudspeaker design is always a compromise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 The Cornwall cabinet would have to be 2" thick plywood to withstand the earthquake waves. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, JJkizak said: The Cornwall cabinet would have to be 2" thick plywood to withstand the earthquake waves. Or adequately braced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockhound Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Next question would be what is one willing to pay for a "heritage inspired" PASSIVE subwoofer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 9 minutes ago, rockhound said: Next question would be what is one willing to pay for a "heritage inspired" PASSIVE subwoofer? Well I was hoping to build my own ... if I ever get around to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Could a smaller box work for a Heritage style folded horn sub, like the size of a La Scala bass bin? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 They say no, it is a physics thing, else bin could have gone lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 31 minutes ago, Ceptorman said: Could a smaller box work for a Heritage style folded horn sub, like the size of a La Scala bass bin? A table tuba would be close in volume but shaped differently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 6 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: A table tuba would be close in volume but shaped differently. That's a very interesting observation. The external volume of the Table Tuba is only 3% larger than that of the Cornwall IV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 18 minutes ago, Edgar said: That's a very interesting observation. The external volume of the Table Tuba is only 3% larger than that of the Cornwall IV. Depending on the width you make it and how many drivers (1 or 2) that you put in it will make the volume vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Does it even need to be a folded horn design? Most of the Heritage lineup isn't, so make this new sub match in appearance, but would it sell? Will Khorn and LS owners even consider this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 19 minutes ago, Ceptorman said: Does it even need to be a folded horn design? Most of the Heritage lineup isn't, so make this new sub match in appearance, but would it sell? Will Khorn and LS owners even consider this? I though that the K-horn, Belle and Lascala were considered folded bass horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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