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jdmccall

Klipsch Missing Boat w/o "Heritage Subs?

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15 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I'm not thinking horn subs.  Too big for about 99.9% of the human race according to a study that was never done.  Too big even for most klipschorn and la scala owners, someone may have once said.  No, I'm thinking vented or sealed, big as needed with very powerful class D amp.  There's many great subs out there that would be quite satisfactory, performance-wise.  But they don't look the part.  They need to look like Klipsch Heritage.  Klipsch could do it so easily, I would think...and I have zero experience in the audio industry, so I should know!

 

 

I disagree!!

 

A fully horn loaded speaker Like Klipschorn, La Scala, or Belle deserves to be in a fully Horn loaded system and I don't think for one second that most of us that have multiple pairs of these are that worried about the additional space! My vote rather is most of us are Puss-Pusses and are afraid of the wife! I have never had that problem but boy am I aware of it with most of you.... Hey, the ideal would be one, or a pair of Klipsch KPT-1802's but if your really don't have the room or the budget, a fully horn loaded sub like the DIY F-20 has a pretty small footprint and is only tall and if your aren't handy with tools you can always contract a build with Carl !!

 

For hat it's worth to the sissy's among us, that's just my 2 cents!   :D

 

Roger

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On 10/22/2020 at 11:32 AM, jdmccall said:

I'm talking home subwoofers.  Key words being "home", as in "designed for".  Not that ugly and enormous 1502 theater thing.  (No offense to any who may have one of those in their home or who perhaps have one they us as a home.)  Other key word: "subwoofer", as in operating below woofer range.  50-60Hz tops, as I don't know of any Heritage speakers that can't function fine down to 60Hz.  If crossovers are done properly, a good sealed or vented sub of sufficient size and power should not muddy up anything, but simply extend bass response right on down to 16-32Hz.

 

 

I disagree again, both the Bass horn on the La Scala and Belle are far to short and these speakers are not even acting as a Horn below 100 Hz. Better look at a Horn Sub that can cross that high for best results!

 

Roger

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I remember this topic being brought up before and this was Klipsch response back in 2005: 

On 3/11/2005 at 8:14 AM, formica said:

Ok, I'm not in the market for another sub... BUT...

It's been awhile that Klipsch has released the KW-120-THX subs , which have been described as the "heritage subs people have been asking for" by several members and administrators who have them.

My question is why not offer the same units with matching heritage finishes... with perhaps a new name. I know Klispch has not been promoting the Heritage series in a long time but it remains at the heart of a majority of their fanatics They could be included in the Heritage brochures... bringing a breath of fresh air to these stagnant offerings. Cheaper than releasing the Jubilee...

How many people here agree??...

Rob

 

On 3/12/2005 at 10:13 AM, Professor.Ham.Slap said:

 

 

----------------

 

On 3/12/2005 5:57:04 AM Blackmesa wrote:

 

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, They are not heritage subwoofer’s!

 

----------------

 

 

 

So? They're the only ones that can truely keep up with the Heritage line by themselves. Therefore, we can deduce that KW-120-THX = Ultra Line = Very Powerful = Good match for Heritage = "Heritage subwoofer."

Edit Note: Didn't Professor.Ham.Slap work for klipsch?

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5 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I'm talking home subwoofers.  Key words being "home", as in "designed for".  Not that ugly and enormous 1502 theater thing.  (No offense to any who may have one of those in their home or who perhaps have one they us as a home.)  Other key word: "subwoofer", as in operating below woofer range.  50-60Hz tops, as I don't know of any Heritage speakers that can't function fine down to 60Hz.  If crossovers are done properly, a good sealed or vented sub of sufficient size and power should not muddy up anything, but simply extend bass response right on down to 16-32Hz.

 

 

 

You are obviously talking your beliefs and not truth. You have obviously never heard a Klipsch KPT-1502 or 1802 in person. A direct radiator has 10 times the distortion of a Horn and it IS Auditable!

 

Roger

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4 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

What do those retail for? 

 

 

 

They only did a small run of the KPT-1502's and they are old sold. I believe they were being sold for right at $3,000 without an amp. It's big brother the 1802 is still available and makes the best Bass Guitar reproduction you will ever hear IMHO!

 

Rog

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3 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

Did they ever make these for retail sale?  I thought the ones floating around were all prototypes.

 

 

 

Carl,

 

Yes, Cory was involved with Roy to get a small run of them done. I think Cory had seven for sale but they are all sold now.

 

Rog

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2 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

Didn't Klipsch have a sub for the Palladium series?

Did anyone ever hear one?

 

 

 

Scrappy Due owned one!

 

Roger

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Small, fully horn loaded, and able to match up to Khorns/Jubs/LaScala's, might work in some rooms or confined listening areas, but as with everything else, there are limitations.  The 1802, was amazing when I heard it in Hope, I'm certain the 1502 is pretty great as well, but it's size, WAF and cost that generally guide all purchases and builds, so most people will never go that direction.  Next SWAG, I hope we can get as many subs as we had speakers and can do a real comparison.  Would love to put the 15 or 1802 through it's paces with other DIY and production subs that are out there.

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I'm not sure what style home you guys live in, but many will have unused space in the attic crawl space.

 

Consider building a big box. Keep the distortion low by using multiple drivers or by horn loading. Move the pieces to the attic for final assembly  of the subwoofer. Snake a speaker wire up the wall and cut a hole in the ceiling and cover it with a vent/grill (it will need some sort of plenum). Folks will just think it is an air intake for the air handler. You might need cushioning between the box and the ceiling joists. 

 

I am filled with crazy ideas ...

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7 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

I'm not sure what style home you guys live in, but many will have unused space in the attic crawl space.

 

Consider building a big box. Keep the distortion low by using multiple drivers or by horn loading. Move the pieces to the attic for final assembly  of the subwoofer. Snake a speaker wire up the wall and cut a hole in the ceiling and cover it with a vent/grill (it will need some sort of plenum). Folks will just think it is an air intake for the air handler. You might need cushioning between the box and the ceiling joists. 

 

I am filled with crazy ideas ...

Or you could do an infinite baffle sub, uses the whole attic as the box. They work extremely well.

https://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/

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5 hours ago, babadono said:

@Ceptorman Do you have one with your Palladiums?

Yes, it does very well, especially with music. 

 

   

frequency response

18-120Hz +/-3dB

amplifier power

FTC rated power: 1000 watts continuous @ <2% THD / dynamic power*: 2500 watts

maximum acoustic output

123dB @ 30Hz 1/8 space, 1m

drive components

Ultra-high-excursion 12" (30.5cm) aluminum / fiber-composite hybrid cone, front-firing woofer and dual 12" (30.5cm) passive radiators

amplifier

BASH® digital hybrid

enclosure type

Bass-reflex via dual side-firing passive radiators

inputs

L/R Line-level RCA and XLR jacks, USB 2.0

 

outputs

Mono RCA and XLR jacks

height

17.75" (45.1cm)

width

20" (50.8cm)

depth

23.25" (59.1cm)

weight

95 lbs (43.1kg)

features

Advanced DCS touch-panel control and feature set w/ 5 system presets
and Adaptive Room Correction

finishes

Zebra-grain Linia veneer in natural, merlot or espresso stain

voltage

110/120 VAC 60Hz

export voltage

220 VAC 50

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9 hours ago, billybob said:

Has anyone heard any more about The Beast Michael was talking about... Klipsch?

@Youthman how is the sub coming along? It may be relevant to this in earnest thread.

Yours respectfully, Billy

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2 hours ago, Ceptorman said:

Yes, it does very well, especially with music. 

 

   

frequency response

18-120Hz +/-3dB

amplifier power

FTC rated power: 1000 watts continuous @ <2% THD / dynamic power*: 2500 watts

maximum acoustic output

123dB @ 30Hz 1/8 space, 1m

drive components

Ultra-high-excursion 12" (30.5cm) aluminum / fiber-composite hybrid cone, front-firing woofer and dual 12" (30.5cm) passive radiators

amplifier

BASH® digital hybrid

enclosure type

Bass-reflex via dual side-firing passive radiators

inputs

L/R Line-level RCA and XLR jacks, USB 2.0

 

outputs

Mono RCA and XLR jacks

height

17.75" (45.1cm)

width

20" (50.8cm)

depth

23.25" (59.1cm)

weight

95 lbs (43.1kg)

features

Advanced DCS touch-panel control and feature set w/ 5 system presets
and Adaptive Room Correction

finishes

Zebra-grain Linia veneer in natural, merlot or espresso stain

voltage

110/120 VAC 60Hz

export voltage

220 VAC 50

Think I remember this so thanks.

Yes, was rather awesome numbers at the time and still applies. Remember asking Amy online here about the mains in the line. Yes, -/+3db in reverse threshold. Starting to realize that the series comes slow to the market.

She said Klipsch personnel agree.

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@babadono - sorry for the late reply. Yes my 1502 is black and looks the same as my jubilees. My wife chose the color and did not want any of it in walnut. I sit and listen with all this stuff aimed at my chair, also listen with the room pretty dark. When you close your eyes the physical soundstage disappears and seems so much deeper and wider.

 

On the question of prototypes and production - I heard the 1502 prototypes and loved the sound especially on bass guitars and stand up bass. I asked @Chief bonehead about getting one for almost two years, glad he did not disown me. My understanding is that a limited run of 10 were made and I have one of those. Got to meet the gentleman that built them at the 2019 Pilgrimage, very cool experience. Also told Roy the Jubilees should come standard with a 1502. A most amazing setup.
 

Believe it or not most of my listening is at lower volumes and the 1502 really shines. Would also admit that I do crank it up sometimes and really feel the bass impacting my chair and body. Clean and clear. I was asked why the 1502 instead of an 1802, simple answer, I did not have to tear out a door frame to get the 1502 into the house - wife did draw the line there. 

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9 hours ago, babadono said:

I heard a rumor that you know who had 5 of 'em(I think it was 5) but when they're gone that's it. But they were all pebble black which is a non starter for me. I would love to have an unfinished one like dtel.

Yes it was a small production run and that was it.

 

Mine was a prototype and unfinished, I was thinking I would paint it black but when I see the wood and condition I stained it and sprayed satin clear

over it.

7 hours ago, MookieStl said:
9 hours ago, dtel said:

Passive as in no amp ? Or passive as in no DSP ?

 

He was working on a Heritage sub that was nice but I don't know where it stands, haven't talked with him about that in a while If I remember correctly no DSP's.

Passive as in no amp. Just a good quality driver which blends well with the current heritage line and a great looking cabinet with matching veneer and grill cloth etc.

 OK, I don't really know but I "think" for a sub the line voltage is not enough to produce what a real sub should do so almost all subs require an extra amp. Others can answer better about this.

For a sub to keep up with a Khorn without an extra amp the sub would have to be a huge horn.

 

7 hours ago, CECAA850 said:
7 hours ago, rockhound said:

I agree on the passive comments above, the amps in Klipsch subs are why I don't buy them. I sure would like to see what kind of horn sub Roy could design for the heritage line, 1202?  

There's a rumor that he prototyped a 1202.  Don't know how accurate that is.

It is true, as far as the amp it does not have one, you add what you want, and it surely NOT be a sub plate amp but a stand alone amp, to me much more reliable. 

 

This is my opinion, except for the 1202 prototype, that is real and sounds good. Will it come to market I have no idea, like the 1502 i thought it should have but i don't think it will continue ? Might not sell on enough scale to make it worth it ? It is big and many would or could not have it is a big problem, all I know for sure is I am not giving up mine. 

 

Example, how many would honestly be willing to have something like this, no matter the output or how clean it sounds..............besides me and a few others. I would think any kind of mass market would be slim ? 

 

This is 68" wide.

speakers (52).jpg

house sub.JPG

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I'm glad y'all who own those huge theater subs are happy with them.  Good for you, but that's just not what I'm talking about.  Those are not even designed for home use.  They are designed for theaters and perhaps other industrial uses.  I'm not familiar with them at all and have no desire to own one. 

 

What I would like to see from Klipsch is just a good, high-quality, high-output series of subs that are designed to be really good aesthetic matches with current and past Heritage speakers.  Performance-wise, the goal would be to match speaker output at crossover (maybe 40-60 Hz) and then just extend it on down as far and as cleanly as possible, keeping price and size manageable.  Tall order maybe.  Obviously, there's different ideas on what a "Heritage" sub should be, but I'm talking about one that would have appeal to a large cross-section of Klipsch Heritage owners.

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2 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I'm not familiar with them at all and have no desire to own one. 

That's fine kind of the point i was saying. Size and looks even though this was a prototype and completely raw is just to much for many, I can guarantee you it was not because of a lack of plenty of very clean bass, not the case.

I use it for 2 ch and HT, in 2 ch you don't know it's on or barely anyway just to fill in the bottom end, for HT it can be shocking with the typical exaggerated bass in movies.

 

But your wrong on ALL the other points, it was not designed for the theater but for the home, this is not the 1802 but a very similar look and design. It is a 1502, you talked about a clean sub, I have never heard a better sounding sub. The 1202 does not look like this design, completely different.

   

 

Most of the last bunch of speakers and the most favorites were all using ideas that were successful in pro speakers.

If you talk with the head Engineer Roy he sees no difference in design between the home and pro speakers, they are the best he can design within certain size constraints. 

He does not go into a design thinking I need to design a new horn for a home or for pro.

The days of pro speakers just needing to be loud with loss of detail went out a very long time ago, well with the best of them anyway, fidelity is not given up for volume, it's a big misconception.

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11 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

I'm not sure what style home you guys live in, but many will have unused space in the attic crawl space.

 

The dog house is likely to have room in it when the spouse kicks them out....  unless of course it's occupied by a territorial Chihuahua..... :huh:

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5 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I'm glad y'all who own those huge theater subs are happy with them.  Good for you, but that's just not what I'm talking about.  Those are not even designed for home use.  They are designed for theaters and perhaps other industrial uses.  I'm not familiar with them at all and have no desire to own one. 

 

What I would like to see from Klipsch is just a good, high-quality, high-output series of subs that are designed to be really good aesthetic matches with current and past Heritage speakers.  Performance-wise, the goal would be to match speaker output at crossover (maybe 40-60 Hz) and then just extend it on down as far and as cleanly as possible, keeping price and size manageable.  Tall order maybe.  Obviously, there's different ideas on what a "Heritage" sub should be, but I'm talking about one that would have appeal to a large cross-section of Klipsch Heritage owners.

 

 

With due respect (and I really am not trying to sound like a jerk/moron though my wife says I don't have to act like one to be one!)

 

Anyway....  what I'm fearing you're missing here is:

 

1.  The woofer is the highest distortion creator "of the three" (presuming direct/radiator)

2.  to have a sub that can "keep up" with something like a Khorn, LaScala....  with their horn loaded bass bins.....you really "want" to keep it (sub) horn loaded so that it will "keep up" with the bass of those speakers AND will have the same clarity of sound that they bring to the table.

3.  Mixing in a smaller (direct radiator) type sub....  would have difficulty keeping up with the levels those speakers can produce and it WILL be adding tons of distortion into the mix that once you are acclimated to the clarity of the bass horns, will shout its presence at you in a negative way.

 

If you want to do it "right" and keep the clarity of sound from the bottom up, then you are almost forced to use a horn loaded subwoofer which all the sudden, because of the physics, is going to be a very large item.  

 

So it's again, down to trade-off's.  If you want the sub to sound "musha boom, musha boom" when playing with the larger Heritage, get something nice, small and easy to hide....  something that might also be sonically dominated by the sound of those larger speakers.  Get something that will keep up and sound correct with them, it's going to be horn loaded, which means huge or, have a direct/radiator driver in it and still be huge.

 

I sought a sub for my LaScalas probably 30 years ago and just shook my head walking away from anything I found as nothing "worked" with them (from a sonic point of view) so I just enjoyed hitting the "A+B" on my receiver and pulling my EV Interface D's into the sound with their -3 db @ 28Hz bottom end.  It was 'mushier' sound but I had them and it worked.

 

Oh, and they're about the size of a pair of Cornwalls.....so again, we're back to "large" (but not monster like some of these true subs)

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@dtel was not suggesting not using an amp for the sub, just no amp built into the sub. I prefer outboard amps. There are plenty of good ones out there. They are easy to use (no crawling around behind the sub etc), easy to upgrade, easier to repair, easier to replace. Plus many options with DSP etc.

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