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Corona Virus Disease/(SARS-CoV-2) II


CECAA850

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4 minutes ago, Trey Cannon said:

...Which is just 1 of the many points that will keep us from being a lab rat....NO WAY for us. 

Check out the link I provided and then compare what we actually know about Covid-19. Fwiw, I'm taking my chances with the Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine. 

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2 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know. | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop.edu)

Even with this history in mind, some reasonably wonder about the mRNA vaccines because they have not previously been approved for use in people. But here, too, we can be confident in what we know:

  • Although COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are new, this type of vaccine has been studied in people before. mRNA vaccines against HIV, rabies, Zika and flu have been tested in phase 1 and phase 2 trials in people. The technology has also been used in clinical trials as a way to treat some cancers. Even though these products have not been licensed for use in people, these efforts provided important information about mRNA technology and its safety.
  • mRNA is made and used in protein production in all cells of our bodies. As such, cells have mechanisms in place to ensure that no protein is made in quantities greater than needed. One way this happens is that mRNA has a “poly(A) tail.” In the cytoplasm, this tail ensures mRNA decay. As the mRNA is used to make proteins in the cell, the length of the poly(A) tail decreases, until it is too short for the mRNA to continue being used as a protein blueprint. Once this happens, the mRNA breaks down and is removed as cellular debris. This process limits how long mRNA remains in the cytoplasm — and, therefore, how much protein is produced.

    As such, poly(A) tails ensure that the cell breaks down the vaccine mRNA in a timely manner. Likewise, this understanding allows scientists to design vaccine-delivered mRNA in a way that ensures it does not stay in the cell longer than needed to generate immunity.
  • Because of the knowledge gained with other vaccines, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) required companies making COVID-19 vaccines to follow trial participants for a minimum of eight weeks before they could submit their data for approval. Likewise, the participants in the mRNA vaccine trials continue to be followed even though the vaccines have been approved for use.

 

Are these not the same type of people that told us that cigarettes were safe? Oh and used mustard gas to make cancer meds? The list goes on. My wife now has a non-reversible effect of taking a drug that has been tested and on the market for years...NOW years later it has been black labeled due to making 30% of the people taking it sick.  And these IDIOTS want us to take a drug that hasn't even been on the market for a year?  No Fu...ing way.   (her drug was REGLAND and now she has Tardive Dyskinesia. She took the drug for 4 weeks after a hernia surgery...that was 2 years ago. It changed how she reacted to other drugs. She had to change some of her long term meds due to this change and now will have to take a drug to help slow down the TD....for the rest of her life) DON'T BELIEVE THE "DOCTORS"....   DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!

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6 minutes ago, Sam S. said:

Aside from the obvious response of whether or not someone should make a health decision based on what "POTUSAs, leading scientists [not sure what qualifies as "leading", I'm sure someone gets to decide who is and isn't based on their conclusion] business and societal leaders, etc", there are numerous examples of individuals in these groups that have expressed doubts or concerns about the vaccines. Some of it is suppressed in the media because it's off message (vaccine good, you take, you don't take you conspiracy theorist nutjob). Others, widely reported.

 

Healthcare workers

Politicians

First off, I think it's off -base to blame the media and it was elected officials who ran the Covid-19 response by downplaying the dangers while doing half-measures to stop the spread with no national response--That's why it spread so fast in the USA. I also realize there are Healthcare workers and others balking at taking the vaccine and I've heard their reasoning and think most have been led astray by social media.

6 minutes ago, Sam S. said:

 

The debate or decision isn't simply "COVID v.s. Vaccine", you are making the vaccine decision based on the risk of COVID and other factors, which might include your age, health, pre-existing conditions, etc. Sort of like Russian Roulette, dangerous? Yes. Harmful? Maybe not - only in 20 some % of people that play it. Your argument (at least this one) is a classic "appeal to authority" (logically fallacious).

My argument comes from studying what Pandemic experts have been doing to mitigate spread in other countries suffering from other outbreaks. This is what they are trained to do. Until the vulnerable are vaccinated then healthy people can spread this virus to them. i don't trust all politicians regardless of party. I have witnessed the missteps over the last year and the "authority" I am "appealing" to are the leading global pandemic experts and not the politicians/elected officials who seem to go against their advice and strategy. 

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12 minutes ago, Trey Cannon said:

re these not the same type of people that told us that cigarettes were safe? Oh and used mustard gas to make cancer meds? The list goes on.

The above is a strawman argument. 

Quote

 

My wife now has a non-reversible effect of taking a drug that has been tested and on the market for years...NOW years later it has been black labeled due to making 30% of the people taking it sick.  And these IDIOTS want us to take a drug that hasn't even been on the market for a year?  No Fu...ing way.   (her drug was REGLAND and now she has Tardive Dyskinesia. She took the drug for 4 weeks after a hernia surgery...that was 2 years ago. It changed how she reacted to other drugs. She had to change some of her long term meds due to this change and now will have to take a drug to help slow down the TD....for the rest of her life)

I'm sorry what you are going through and based on this understand your personal reasoning. Again, not having studied REGLAND I can't comment but have been following Covid-19 research and is why I'm going the vaccine route instead of contracting the virus.

Quote

 

DON'T BELIEVE THE "DOCTORS"....   DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!

I agree about doing your own research, but if you think Social Media is going to give you more incite than clinical studies and scientific based research then I really don't know what to tell you. I'm not sure how Klipsch handles Social Distancing, Mask wearing, and considering having everyone have a chance at the shot(s) who want one, but cant see how y'all could safely open up at the factory or office without having a plan in place.

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From the linked article above:

 

Regardless, this history humbles vaccine scientists. They know that they hold people’s lives in their hands. As stated by Dr. Maurice Hilleman, perhaps the most prolific vaccine scientist in history, “I never breathe a sigh of relief until the first few million doses are out there,” (Personal communication, Paul Offit, 2004). For this reason, scientists and public health officials carefully analyze and continually monitor the data related to every vaccine before, during and after it becomes available.

 

 

Basically Maurice is saying that he's nervous till a few million doses are out which means he's not certain of what is going to happen till he sees it.  He's also saying that they need to keep watching what's happening after people have been injected because they have no idea of what will happen in the long term.

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1 hour ago, Zen Traveler said:

Thanks for the link. Certainly, I agree that weighing the risk/reward and not only the short and long term effects of COVID is a very difficult decision for one to make. I was actually thinking about the Johnson and Johnson/AZ technology, which uses a new (not proven or tested long term) technology to deliver the double stranded DNA via an older, proven technology (weakened adenovirus), but the gist of those and the mRNA vaccines are similar, only the delivery device is different (lipid nanoparticles, which to my knowledge have never been used before (Pfizer/Moderna) v.s. the weakened adenovirus (Johnson and Johnson/AZ). The mRNA data cited in your article are for technologies that are still in clinical trials stage. AS your article states, no mRNA vaccines have ever before been approved for human use. Notwithstanding the delivery device being different (we don't know much about the lipid nanoparticles Pfizer is using because they are claiming it's "proprietary"), those other trials are in stage 1/2, whereas we are still waiting for Pfizer to release their stage 4 data.  

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1 hour ago, Sam S. said:

Aside from the obvious response of whether or not someone should make a health decision based on what "POTUSAs, leading scientists [not sure what qualifies as "leading", I'm sure someone gets to decide who is and isn't based on their conclusion] business and societal leaders, etc", there are numerous examples of individuals in these groups that have expressed doubts or concerns about the vaccines. Some of it is suppressed in the media because it's off message (vaccine good, you take, you don't take you conspiracy theorist nutjob). Others, widely reported.

 

Healthcare workers

Politicians

 

The debate or decision isn't simply "COVID v.s. Vaccine", you are making the vaccine decision based on the risk of COVID and other factors, which might include your age, health, pre-existing conditions, etc. Sort of like Russian Roulette, dangerous? Yes. Harmful? Maybe not - only in 20 some % of people that play it. Your argument (at least this one) is a classic "appeal to authority" (logically fallacious).

From your article you linked.

 

Stormy Tatom, 30, a hospital ICU nurse in Beaumont, Texas, said she decided against getting vaccinated for now “because of the unknown long-term side effects.”

 

 

Beaumont is where I live.  My wife works at a local hospital and most of the ER and ICU staff does not want the vaccine for the reasons stated in the article.  These are at risk medical professionals, not wack job conspiracy theorists.

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26 minutes ago, Sam S. said:

Certainly, I agree that weighing the risk/reward and not only the short and long term effects of COVID is a very difficult decision for one to make.

If I were older and had several at risk conditions I may feel differently.  The older you are the less concerned you are about long term issues and more concerned about the here and now.

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13 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

If I were older and had several at risk conditions I may feel differently.  The older you are the less concerned you are about long term issues and more concerned about the here and now.

Exactly the point. If someone had maybe 10-20 years left (although it's hard to predict things) the weight of the risk/reward analysis might be completely different than say for a 5 year old, who has a much longer life expectancy.

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My FIL is a pulmonologist that sees the effects of COVID every day. His take is the risks of COVID, long and short term, far outweigh this risks of the vaccine. COVID has been downplayed, although it has killed hundreds of thousands. Not saying the vaccine does not have risks, but I am way more scared of COVID.

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46 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

If I were older and had several at risk conditions I may feel differently.  The older you are the less concerned you are about long term issues and more concerned about the here and now.


Bingo - and there you have it. This is more the case for us as opposed to the”lemming” theory mentioned earlier or that several POTUS had the vaccine. I could give a ratz azz who, what or how many Presidents took the vaccine - or so the press photos documented. We did what we felt was best for us, at our age, to at least psychologically if not actually feel safer around grandkids and others. As is the vaccine, what we do in life is a gamble. I’d bet the odds of me being picked off by a inattentive driver or not negotiating a high speed turn on my bike are greater than the risks of a vaccine. Too late anywho - already doubled down on Moderna. 

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12 minutes ago, richieb said:


Bingo - and there you have it. This is more the case for us as opposed to the”lemming” theory mentioned earlier or that several POTUS had the vaccine. I could give a ratz azz who, what or how many Presidents took the vaccine - or so the press photos documented. We did what we felt was best for us, at our age, to at least psychologically if not actually feel safer around grandkids and others. As is the vaccine, what we do in life is a gamble. I’d bet the odds of me being picked off by a inattentive driver or not negotiating a high speed turn on my bike are greater than the risks of a vaccine. Too late anywho - already doubled down on Moderna. 

I should have said that if I were as old as Richie.  Everyone would have understood.

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30 minutes ago, iaRIVR said:

My FIL is a pulmonologist that sees the effects of COVID every day. His take is the risks of COVID, long and short term, far outweigh this risks of the vaccine. COVID has been downplayed, although it has killed hundreds of thousands. Not saying the vaccine does not have risks, but I am way more scared of COVID.

Hes seeing less than one tenth of one percent of your local population i would guess.  He wouldn't have any long-term info on the vaccine either.

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3 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

From the linked article above:

 

Regardless, this history humbles vaccine scientists. They know that they hold people’s lives in their hands. As stated by Dr. Maurice Hilleman, perhaps the most prolific vaccine scientist in history, “I never breathe a sigh of relief until the first few million doses are out there,” (Personal communication, Paul Offit, 2004). For this reason, scientists and public health officials carefully analyze and continually monitor the data related to every vaccine before, during and after it becomes available.

 

Sure. I included that paragraph from the link because this is new territory and what he articulates is how he honestly feels. I gather he also took the shot(s).

3 hours ago, Sam S. said:

...he mRNA data cited in your article are for technologies that are still in clinical trials stage. AS your article states, no mRNA vaccines have ever before been approved for human use. Notwithstanding the delivery device being different (we don't know much about the lipid nanoparticles Pfizer is using because they are claiming it's "proprietary"), those other trials are in stage 1/2, whereas we are still waiting for Pfizer to release their stage 4 data.  

Again, I appreciate due-diligence but we are at the stage where another severe rise in cases WILL shut down the economy and I feel like the plan in place is our best option to negate spread and open back up completely by July. 

3 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

From your article you linked.

 

Stormy Tatom, 30, a hospital ICU nurse in Beaumont, Texas, said she decided against getting vaccinated for now “because of the unknown long-term side effects.”

 

 

Beaumont is where I live.  My wife works at a local hospital and most of the ER and ICU staff does not want the vaccine for the reasons stated in the article.  These are at risk medical professionals, not wack job conspiracy theorists.

I have family members who are in the healthcare profession who reluctantly took the vaccine and still feel mask wearing does nothing. They are not "wack jobs" but Imo  their political persuasion skews their view of scientific research because they never waver from their political leaning regardless how contrary it seems to  the facts--It is weird to me but I think Social media conditioning and hatred for "the media" skews their views. Of course this is only my opinion but it's based on 30 years of discussing a myriad of issues with them. 

2 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

If I were older and had several at risk conditions I may feel differently.  The older you are the less concerned you are about long term issues and more concerned about the here and now.

Sure there is that. Otoh, I am in pretty close contact to several clients on a daily basis who have family members or themselves are in a high-risk catagory and have an obligation to keep them as safe as I can given the perimeters established. I HATED opening back up after the state of Texas closed my business with mask wearing (our choice at the time because the mandate had not been established) but it seemed to make the most sense and today even more so until everyone at least has the option to get the vaccine. 

2 hours ago, iaRIVR said:

My FIL is a pulmonologist that sees the effects of COVID every day. His take is the risks of COVID, long and short term, far outweigh this risks of the vaccine. COVID has been downplayed, although it has killed hundreds of thousands. Not saying the vaccine does not have risks, but I am way more scared of COVID.

Yep. I am so grateful that @dwilawyer kept this thread open because even with the deletions it's an excellent time capsule showing the trajectory of Covid-19 and normal folks response to it over the last year and a month. 

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1 minute ago, oldtimer said:
3 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

These are at risk medical professionals, not wack job conspiracy theorists.

Why can't they be both?

If they are wearing N-95 masks and other PPE then they aren't in as much risk  and I would be curious how they behave in public. If they are going to bars and hangin' out at super-spreader events unprotected then I would question their medical acumen. 

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The latest from Faucci on if eating indoors in restaurants is safe post vaccination:

 

 

 

"No, it's still not," Fauci said. "For the simple reason that level of infection, the dynamics of infection in the community are still really disturbingly high."

 

"If you are vaccinated, please remember that you still have to be careful and not get involved in crowded situations, particularly indoors where people are not wearing masks," he said.

 

 

I thought that after you were vaccinated you were immune??????

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