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Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees


Ziggurat

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Hi all, it's been a while since I posted here.  I wanted to share some of my experiences with Jubilees, running actively through a Xilica XP crossover / eq.  One of the main reasons for this is that when I was purchasing my Jubilees, I think I misunderstood information I had read about powering them.  Basically, I had thought that the Xilica would be a 'great leveller' making all amplifiers sound the same - that I could pretty much buy any old amp and turn it into a killer with the Xilica and high-sensitivity Jubilee combo.

 

I can now say that whilst it is an amazing bit of kit, the Xilica does not fundamentally alter the personality of amplifiers - in my experience.  I am not an expert Xilica driver, nor am I an audio reviewer - so all that follows is just FWIW.  I have used several different amplifiers on both the bass bins and the K402 horns and am going to give a brief description of my observations, NOT to extol the virtues or otherwise of these components, but to highlight the importance of finding the right amplifiers if you own, or plan to own Jubilees. The revealing nature of the Jubes, when run actively, is not to be underestimated.  I want to add here that the Xilica certainly gives the ability to make the most of both the Jubilees and your chosen amp, but that does not mean that other choices aren't better. Like with any audio decision, listen to as many options as you can!  

 

My upstream gear is a PC optimized for audio (Tidal), running to a Chord M-Scaler and Qutest DAC combo, then to a Wyred 4 Sound pre-amp, the Xilica, and then out to the amps.  The factory compression drivers on the 402 have been replaced with Faital HF200 8-Ohm units.

 

Bass Amplifiers

 

I started out with some serious grunt here after buying a bulk lot of Crown professional amps - including a Macrotec 2400 and some of the lesser models in the pro range.  All of these have had use, and (unfortunately) all of them have noisy fans, eventually leading me to seek more suitable domestic gear.  In all cases, the Crowns delivered fast, superb bass, with massive grip and speed throughout the range. With the Macrotec especially, I was barely aware there was an amplifier in the signal path, there was just bass - clean, mean bass.  All of the Crowns were between 300 and 600 watts per channel. 

 

Next came another pro-amp - a Phonic 3000, with controlled fans - I'd hoped it wouldn't require installation OUTSIDE (I actually set the Crowns up in a box under my house because of the fans..). I knew nothing of the brand when buying it - it was simply cheap and nearby.  The thing weighs considerably more that even the Macrotech - and claimed 600wpc.  This amplifier has been checked as functional by a tech, but it doesn't sound like it. It is comparatively slow and very quiet compared to the Crowns.  Gain has to be boosted up, and straight away the bass sounds like a cardboard box being walloped with a stick. No amount of Xilica treatment, or the on-board options, can take away the annoying aspects of this amp. 

 

I took the Phonic to be checked out, and put in a QSC 100wpc pro amp I had bought for $10.  All PEQ settings had to be altered - with only the general trend in the Xilica's curve remaining.  The sound is lively, bloomy and fun - it sounds positively old-school.  The Jubilees sound like a good old box speaker with this one in place - but in a charming way.  I knew I wasn't getting the best out of them, but the warm, wooly sound kind of took me back to yesteryear.  An entirely different experience to the other amps.

 

Then came a Cambridge Audio 841 domestic amp, for which I had high hopes. 200wpc and well-reviewed.  This amp had the grip and speed of the Macrotech, possibly just lacking a fraction of knock-out dynamics.  Awesome. This amp helped confirm that quality kit was going to be needed ultimately.   But, sadly, it hummed 140hz (in both my system and elsewhere).  Through the efficient Jubilees at idle, this livened-up my room and was intolerable.  It was returned to the shop for credit.  and this is where things get really interesting for me.....

 

Mid-Hi Amplifiers 

 

The benchmark here has been my First-Watt F1J.  I have extolled the virtues of this beautiful little amplifier elsewhere on the forum.  Extremely precise, but perhaps a fraction cool?  I started to feel a sense of fatigue from it at times, even with careful attention to the parametric EQ on the Xilica.  I would go and listen to a friend's AK6 K-Horn / Leben CS600 and come home feeling like I was missing atmosphere - but that my system sounded more precise and without the shortcomings of the K-Horn system (I love K-Horns, but after owning the Jubilees, K-Horns seem 'wonderfully compromised').

 

I decided to try another Class A solid state amp to see if I could get some more magic out of the big 402's - this time a Sugden 30 wpc unit - another hi-hope item for me.  It delivered, but not in spades.  Presentation was similar to the First Watt, with slightly richer vocals, and better imaging - which projected out past the horns a bit more than with Nelson's baby.  It was enough to make me decide to buy it, but I could have lived happily with the F1.

 

I also tried the above Cambridge on the Faital/402 matching.  It proved to be a far better bass amp than for use up top.  Detail was smeared and unnatural sounding.  It was clear that the Xilica was not going to add refinement to this amp - helping make up my mind to return it. 

 

The owner at the shop taking the Cambridge back offered me shop credit, but had nothing in stock I wanted.  I did see he carried Primaluna gear and so I asked about the Evolution 300 power amplifier - approx 40wpc from two EL34 tubes per side.  He had one coming, and sent it straight to me the following day.  Within 10 minutes of the Evo300 being plugged in, I knew I was in love.  Again, the PEQ had to be radically altered, but even using the Sugden setting, my room was bathed in rich, fulfilling ambient sound. Totally incomparable to the solid state amplifiers.  3-dimensionaltiy is complete - whereas in the F1 it was like looking at a flat fish-tank and the Sugden a round one, listening to the Primaluna is like plunging your head into the water.  This did NOT come from a Xilica PEQ setting -  this amplifier it simply a better match for the drive units - there is no doubt. 

 

The Primaluna brings me everything I wanted from the top end of my system.  I'm back running the Phonic on the bass until I can sort out Bryston or some other decent bass amp. I will of course try other things that people bring over, etc - in the spirit of the open-mindedness I am trying to encourage with this post.

 

A footnote regarding the Primaluna.  I've had two amplifiers from this company now, one an integrated that I drove Altec 19's with, and the one above.  Both have been very sensitive to EMI and dirty power.  The Evo300 produces a noticeable hum through the Faital/K402's which diminishes and grows depending on what household appliances and audio gear is switched on and off.  A Triode Wire Labs  power cord literally HALVED this noise over the supplied power cord.  No joke.  But even at the reduced level, it was not at all acceptable.  The Faital drivers have a sensitivity of 109db, so I do not blame the amp, per se. 

 

In an effort to reduce the hum, I borrowed an Al Klappenberg autoformer and installed it between the amp and speakers. This unit offers the ability to choose your reduction from zero to -9db in steps.  At full -9db, the hum was virtually gone - but so was the 3d magic. I called this the GoneBerger Effect, and moved on to a hastily-wired up L-Pad.  This took -10db off the sensitivity, and again reduced the hum to almost nothing.  If it took a fraction of the magic out of the system, it was so very slight.  I hope to build a better L-Pad using Deuland resistors to maybe restore that last fraction, and maybe drop to -12db.  Having massive gain adjustability in the Xilica is great and appreciated when employing the above work-arounds.

 

Anyhow, hope this has been useful, and hope you are all enjoying the music out there. 

 

Zig.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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You might also compare notes with @mikebse2a3 who I believe has tried a few amplifier combinations on his Jubs. The last picture I saw had him using a McIntosh headphone amplifier (another higher output impedance amplifier like your F1J and likely your Primaluna) on his TAD high frequency channels.  I believe that @rigma uses tubes (likely single-ended SETs) for two channel duty with his passive crossovers (the ones mounted on the wall next to the Jubs), but I believe that he's also tried out others, including SS for home theater duty in the past (IIRC). Both of these Jubilee owners still browse the forum fairly often, and sometimes stop to post into a thread.  Maybe they'll stop by in this one.

 

I'm going the other direction--trying out Hypex NCore amplifiers (i.e., low output impedance) embedded within FusionAmps, since I'm not much of a tube enthusiast.  I may tinker a bit with a transconductance (current feedback/current drive) amplifier schema in a modified Howland circuit.  I think it's well within your personal preferences of what you like to hear--and I do believe that the lion's share of what is occurring is related to varying the amplifiers' output impedances.

 

Chris

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I have probably used 6-10 amps/integrateds’ on my Crites passive Jubilees. From Class D nCores, Pass First Watt F3, Pass Labs 25 watt Class A to twenty watt single ended tube monos and just last night the new to me Vaughn EL84 single ended tube integrated. I was literally mesmerized while listening to female vocals, amp set to triode mode equating to roughly 1.5 watts. Not listening at concert levels but could have easily made things uncomfortable, there was very little if anything lacking with one and a half watts. It was truly impressive with every manor of presentation. 

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I have just the Jubilees' little brothers, La Scala IIs with 402 horns w/K691 drivers, and I don't have experience with a lot of amps, but the bi-amp setup is the same as it is with Jubilees.  I've been really happy with the Yamaha MX-D1 power amps, for both bass and treble. This gives a consistent sound from deepest bass to highest treble.  They're a dual-mono Class D design, with a reputation for sounding "tubey".  They were a statement product for Yamaha, and are in a league above typical Yamaha gear.

 

Speaking very generally, it would seem to be better to use home audio amps for home audio use, because they're designed to sound good at typical home listening levels.  Although those Yamahas of mine have 500 Wpc, their lowest harmonic distortion is in the 6-10 watt range, while most pro amps are designed to sound best at near full power, and won't sound their best when running at a fraction of full power.  The Bryston amps may be the exception, since they seem to use the same lines for home and pro use.

 

Just my two cents worth.

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On 11/30/2020 at 7:58 AM, Schu said:

Where are all the 4002s coming from? I might be a buyer if anyone has a lead

I believe that many/most of the TADs running on Jubilees were bought in a group buy in 2009, with MikeTN and Marion I believe slightly leading that group buy pack. As you know, the TAD TD-4002s were discontinued, probably due to the neodymium magnets (prices have risen significantly).  Since then, all the 4002's I've seen are coming second hand, and mainly from commercial venues (as I'm also sure you know, and these can be problematic, since the diaphragms alone at running about $1k USD each, and that is the reason why many of the older 4002s are being sold--instead of refurbished). 

 

Neodymium magnets also don't like to be overheated--like you get in discos and other very high SPL/long operating period applications.  Their Curie points are much lower than ferrite magnets. That's why the TD-4001s (same diaphragm with a 20# ferrite magnet instead of the ~11# neo magnet in the 4002) are still being used, I would guess.  The 4001 prices have always been a higher than the discontinued 4002s.  So you can get the performance of the 4002s--but using the 4001s. 

__________________________________________________________________________

 

I wouldn't go that way now that I've discovered how to dial in and bi-amp a BMS 4592ND to get about the same performance as the TD-4002--and without the FM distortion of having such a wide band of frequencies being reproduced on a single diaphragm. A Hypex FusionAmp (FA123) makes that very easy to do and replace the DSP crossover, two stereo amplifiers, and a couple of speaker wires to each loudspeaker, instead using a signal line from a preamp, player, or computer (running a PCIe to AES card), or an unbalanced RCA analog, balanced XLR analog, or S/PDIF [coaxial or optical] input.

 

Chris

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When I was experimenting with triamping my khorns and using active crossovers, I too found I loved tube amplification on the top end and solid state down below.  I had my 2a3 PP on the tweeters (which replaced a slew of other amps including a tripath chip amp), My PP EL34 on the mids and a mcintosh SS on the bass bins.  Great imaging and the speakers disappeared.  But, I became disenchanted with the complexity of the system and eventually reverted to a normal xover and the 2a3 amp driving the khorns.  85-90% of the great music and no complexity!  I sometimes think about going "whole hog" again; buying jubes, an active xover and biamping again but...perhaps I will hold off a few more year until retirement when I have a lot more time on my hands and can enjoy the process AND the incremental improvement in results.  The point is to enjoy the music.  Kepp us informed about your progress.  warm regards, Tony  

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2 hours ago, sunnysal said:

When I was experimenting with triamping my khorns and using active crossovers, I too found I loved tube amplification on the top end and solid state down below.  I had my 2a3 PP on the tweeters (which replaced a slew of other amps including a tripath chip amp), My PP EL34 on the mids and a mcintosh SS on the bass bins.  Great imaging and the speakers disappeared.  But, I became disenchanted with the complexity of the system and eventually reverted to a normal xover and the 2a3 amp driving the khorns.  85-90% of the great music and no complexity!  I sometimes think about going "whole hog" again; buying jubes, an active xover and biamping again but...perhaps I will hold off a few more year until retirement when I have a lot more time on my hands and can enjoy the process AND the incremental improvement in results.  The point is to enjoy the music.  Kepp us informed about your progress.  warm regards, Tony  

 

Once the Jubilee bi-amp setup is dialled in, that’s it.  In my setup, which is electronically like the earlier Jubilees, it takes only two buttons to turn it on:  the processor/crossover (an E/V Dx38 in my case), and the AVR/preamp.  It’s only one more button press than a basic system.  The power amps are already on, and the subwoofers will turn themselves on.  Sure, some folks like to tweak their systems endlessly, and sometimes it winds up taking a leap up in enjoyment, as Chris A’s system seems to have done.  But if you just want to enjoy your music without analyzing and pondering what could be improved about your system, bi-amped Jubilees let you do that.

 

The bi-amp setup with Jubilees has the advantage of having a large community of users, so you can usually find someone who has encountered the same problem you may possibly be encountering, and has found the solution, which he’s probably happy to share with you.  Once my system was sorted at the very start, that was it.  When I switched from 501 horns to 402s after nine years, it was just a matter of punching in the new settings provided by Roy, our Chief Bonehead.  Done!  Life is as simple as you want it to be.

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Hi team

 

Thanks for the responses.  

 

8 hours ago, parlophone1 said:

Interesting indeed.

If you are sure that other appliances in the house or radio-frequencies are to blame for the noise in your speakers, there are filters too remedy that issues.

I am using such filter, although I do not have speakers with such a high sensitivity with positive result.

 

Thanks - yes I am working on trying different filters and methods of reducing the noisy power etc.  I will hopefully be able to cull the bulk of the noise.  One of the worst polluters has been my PC... It has to be on a fully separate circuit or the noise through the power is incredible. 

 

8 hours ago, rmlowz said:

I have K402s with Crites passive my Inspire 45 amp is magical ! I have posted this before they have never sounded this good. I have had the K402s for 14 years. This is my latest amp I have a whole new system.

 

Rich

 

 

I love the 45 SET amps too - ran my Khorns with one for years. Bliss!  And so simple!

 

6 hours ago, sunnysal said:

When I was experimenting with triamping my khorns and using active crossovers, I too found I loved tube amplification on the top end and solid state down below.  I had my 2a3 PP on the tweeters (which replaced a slew of other amps including a tripath chip amp), My PP EL34 on the mids and a mcintosh SS on the bass bins.  Great imaging and the speakers disappeared.  But, I became disenchanted with the complexity of the system and eventually reverted to a normal xover and the 2a3 amp driving the khorns.  85-90% of the great music and no complexity!  I sometimes think about going "whole hog" again; buying jubes, an active xover and biamping again but...perhaps I will hold off a few more year until retirement when I have a lot more time on my hands and can enjoy the process AND the incremental improvement in results.  The point is to enjoy the music.  Kepp us informed about your progress.  warm regards, Tony  

 

I know what you mean re complexity.  I have put everything in a cupboard behind my listening room so I never see the mass of componentry and cables!  I have struggled a few times with the whole active bi-amp exercise, but have decided to push on.  I don't think I am too far away from achieving the goal I set out for.  That said, if it all gets too hard, I will build a set of Khorns, or fire up my Altec 19's again, get an integrated amp and move on with life....... But for now, Ima stick at the Joobs.

 

Catch y'all soon.

 

Zig.

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8 hours ago, Chris A said:

I wouldn't go that way now that I've discovered how to dial in and bi-amp a BMS 4592ND to get about the same performance as the TD-4002--and without the FM distortion of having such a wide band of frequencies being reproduced on a single diaphragm. A Hypex FusionAmp (FA123) makes that very easy to do and replace the DSP crossover, two stereo amplifiers, and a couple of speaker wires to each loudspeaker, instead using a signal line from a preamp, player, or computer (running a PCIe to AES card), or an unbalanced RCA analog, balanced XLR analog, or S/PDIF [coaxial or optical] input.

 

Hi Chris.  I emailed you a while back about the BMS drivers.  Can you point me to any discussions you have had here or elsewhere about these?  Many thanks.

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I use 1 amp now for my Jubs, a McIntosh MC-8207.  I use 6 of the 7 channels (running 3-way).  I do use another amp for the subs.  I like this setup so much I just bought another 8207 this week for my MCM top 6 horns In that 5-way setup).  Bass cabinets and subs use other amplifiers in that system.  I found it to be a big advantage tuning the setup when the same amp is powering all channels, and it is a clean sounding McIntosh with all channels calibrated identically.

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22 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

I use 1 amp now for my Jubs, a McIntosh MC-8207.  I use 6 of the 7 channels (running 3-way).  I do use another amp for the subs.  I like this setup so much I just bought another 8207 this week for my MCM top 6 horns In that 5-way setup).  Bass cabinets and subs use other amplifiers in that system.  I found it to be a big advantage tuning the setup when the same amp is powering all channels, and it is a clean sounding McIntosh with all channels calibrated identically.

 

I had considered doing the same - but the price of McIntosh gear is horrendous in NZ..  Retail price for that particular amp is $18,000.  Still, if I have some spare funds one day, the 8207 would be a dream come true.  

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36 minutes ago, Ziggurat said:

 

I had considered doing the same - but the price of McIntosh gear is horrendous in NZ..  Retail price for that particular amp is $18,000.  Still, if I have some spare funds one day, the 8207 would be a dream come true.  

 

That is wild pricing.  I buy used. I feel you can't go wrong with used McIntosh if purchased carefully.  For $18,000 I could have bought almost 5 of those amps.  I paid a tiny fraction of that.

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52 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

 

That is wild pricing.  I buy used. I feel you can't go wrong with used McIntosh if purchased carefully.  For $18,000 I could have bought almost 5 of those amps.  I paid a tiny fraction of that.

 

To be fair $18,000NZD = $12,600 USD - should have added that. :)

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3 minutes ago, Ziggurat said:

 

To be fair $18,000NZD = $12,600 USD - should have added that. :)

 

That's still pretty far from pocket change.  However, you never know who might have such an amp that they'd like to sell, and with the World Wide Web at your fingertips...

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Just now, Islander said:

 

That's still pretty far from pocket change.  However, you never know who might have such an amp that they'd like to sell, and with the World Wide Web at your fingertips...

 

Totally.  If I could find a 240v one somewhere......

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