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Denix8

Suspect new Klipsch speakers for tinnitus worsening

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Hi!

 

Two weeks ago I bought a pair of Klipsch RP-160M speakers. The sound was friggin' amazing, but since I have little room atm, I use them as my computer speakers with Yamaha RX-V450 (that means they are 0.8 - 0.9 m from my head with tweeters pointing towards me at ear level and speakers are right at the wall but angled so port is not blocked). Since I work entire day on this computer, it was logical choice to get good quality music at the same time. I dont listen to loud levels, its more like for background, only a few times for a short time did I raise the volume. I did, however, get a bit unsettling feeling in the ears (not yet tinnitus, just unsettling, unpleasant)

I started having problem with tinnitus after buying BOSE QC35II headphones two years ago and using them for two days with NC. It never went back to zero but it was totally tolerable. Now Im experiencing worsening, yesterday in the evening it was very loud even with all the sounds surrounding me. Mind you I am barely ever on loud concerts (cant tolerate loud music) and dont work (never did) in noisy environments. I am afraid that I gave so much money only to have speakers I cant listen to 😕 I switched back to Yamaha NX-E130 and the sound quality difference is enormous, but I dont get that unpleasant feeling in the ears, although its too early to tell if tinnitus will widthdraw (as it needs some time to settle).

Could it be the much better frequency response and horn tweeter that are causing this? I wanted to eventually add center speaker and maybe surrounds all from Klipsch to make home theater from them but now Im afraid to put more money in these type of speakers if they can cause problems for me. Could it be the listening distance? Please share your thoughts on this

 

Regards,

Dennis

Edited by Denix8
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If you are asking about a developing medical condition, wouldn't it make more sense to speak with a medical type about this. IMO, an appt with an ENT would be wise, since they can rule out some bad things (a primary care provider won't have a sufficient background).

 

Asking a bunch of audio enthusiasts is only going to get you some suspect advice.

 

Good luck,

-Tom

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4 hours ago, Denix8 said:

Could it be the much better frequency response and horn tweeter that are causing this?

I'd strongly advise that you get yourself an SPL meter (on your phone or a hand-held version)...and I also recommend keeping it under 80 dB(C) at the listening position.  If you have tinnitus (or perhaps a precursor to it), the most likely cause is that the SPL is just too loud, whatever you might otherwise like to believe/blame.  It's the little sensory hairs in your cochleas that are damaged/dying when your hearing is semi-permanently or permanently affected.  That's your body's way of saying "stop". 

 

Loudspeakers that are free of compression and modulation distortion (like most Klipsch loudspeakers) don't sound "loud", because it's the distortion from other direct radiating loudspeakers that so many people are used to hearing to tell them to turn it down.  Without that distortion, it's people that don't listen to their body's defenses that go on to develop tinnitus (i.e., permanent hearing loss). That's not the fault of the loudspeakers--quite the contrary.


Chris

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21 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I'd strongly advise that you get yourself an SPL meter (on your phone or a hand-held version)...and I also recommend keeping it under 80 dB(C) at the listening position.  If you have tinnitus (or perhaps a precursor to it), the most likely cause is that the SPL is just too loud, whatever you might otherwise like to believe/blame.  It's the little sensory hairs in your cochleas that are damaged/dying when your hearing is semi-permanently or permanently affected.  That's your body's way of saying "stop". 

 

Loudspeakers that are free of compression and modulation distortion (like most Klipsch loudspeakers) don't sound "loud", because it's the distortion from other direct radiating loudspeakers that so many people are used to hearing to tell them to turn it down.  Without that distortion, it's people that don't listen to their body's defenses that go on to develop tinnitus (i.e., permanent hearing loss). That's not the fault of the loudspeakers--quite the contrary.


Chris

 

This is a very good point. My Klipsch CF3's are the first speakers I've owned that can be played at an extremely loud level without it seeming as loud since they won't distort. During a spirited listening session I'll leave the SPL meter open on my phone just to keep things in check. There's a definite sweet spot where the volume is enough to feel like you are there with the musician, but not overly loud or fatiguing. 

 

Everyone that I've had over (none are into audio as a hobby) to listen comments on how "clear" and "realistic" the sound is, especially when playing live performances. The look on someone's face after hearing my current setup is priceless.  

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1 hour ago, PrestonTom said:

If you are asking about a developing medical condition, wouldn't it make more sense to speak with a medical type about this. IMO, an appt with an ENT would be wise, since they can rule out some bad things (a primary care provider won't have a sufficient background).

 

Asking a bunch of audio enthusiasts is only going to get you some suspect advice.

 

Good luck,

-Tom

 

Thanks for suggestion! I did not mean to ask for analysis about developing medical condition, at least not in medical sense. I have already been to a primary care provider and she said tinnitus is still largely unexplored and can appear for variety of reasons, even if ears are not damaged, and the only thing I can do is wait and hope it gets better (and not use noise cancelling since that was first thing that triggered it for me). That does sound like more like a general advice yes, maybe I should get in contact with a professional if it gets worse

 

What I was asking is if there is a possibility that these better speakers with a quality tweeter, which are known to also be on the bright side, could trigger tinnitus because brain was not used to hear music at such high frequencies and with such sharpness. I never had any speakers that would be considered high quality by any means, these are my first. I thought maybe could be people here (Im just guessing) that have found out that they have sensitivity to pronounced high frequencies (I dont even know if thats a thing)

 

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

I'd strongly advise that you get yourself an SPL meter (on your phone or a hand-held version)...and I also recommend keeping it under 80 dB(C) at the listening position.  If you have tinnitus (or perhaps a precursor to it), the most likely cause is that the SPL is just too loud, whatever you might otherwise like to believe/blame.  It's the little sensory hairs in your cochleas that are damaged/dying when your hearing is semi-permanently or permanently affected.  That's your body's way of saying "stop". 

 

Loudspeakers that are free of compression and modulation distortion (like most Klipsch loudspeakers) don't sound "loud", because it's the distortion from other direct radiating loudspeakers that so many people are used to hearing to tell them to turn it down.  Without that distortion, it's people that don't listen to their body's defenses that go on to develop tinnitus (i.e., permanent hearing loss). That's not the fault of the loudspeakers--quite the contrary.


Chris

 

I agree, I was already looking at UMIK-1, I will buy an SPL meter together with it I guess, never thought that speakers could actually not sound loud but be loud (these are my first high quality speakers). I am not in any way implying that its the speakers fault (please dont understand me wrong), the problem is in me in any case, but I just thought that if I happen to be oversensitive to some high frequencies (which these speakers can reproduce because they are high quality and a horn) it could be a bad combo. On the other hand its probably quite possible that a short burst of volume has broken my brain (and its an SPL thing, like you said)

 

34 minutes ago, Zack R said:

 

This is a very good point. My Klipsch CF3's are the first speakers I've owned that can be played at an extremely loud level without it seeming as loud since they won't distort. During a spirited listening session I'll leave the SPL meter open on my phone just to keep things in check. There's a definite sweet spot where the volume is enough to feel like you are there with the musician, but not overly loud or fatiguing. 

 

Everyone that I've had over (none are into audio as a hobby) to listen comments on how "clear" and "realistic" the sound is, especially when playing live performances. The look on someone's face after hearing my current setup is priceless.  

 

The speakers indeed are very crisp and clear, that's why I really don't want to stop using them. I'm just exploring all possibilities for this problem and wanted to ask here, where people more into HiFi audio are hanging out (and could have potentially encountered this problem). I will definitely buy an SPL meter, thanks for advice!

Edited by Denix8
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7 hours ago, Denix8 said:

(not yet tinnitus, just unsettling, unpleasant)

 

Some people, who do not have tinnitus, are just unusually sensitive to distortion in the high range.   In your case, now that you have revealing speakers, the distortion may be coming from the sound source, your CDs, streaming, even SACDs, revealed by your Klipsch speakers, but glossed over by others.  Quite a few speakers -- even some high end ones -- veil the noxious treble distortion on some CDs.  Klipsch speakers are not among them.  I was once playing a bad CD and my daughter said, "too loud!"  As I turned it down, I said, "Yeah, those piccolos."  She said, "No, the brass!"  Different people are bothered by different aspects of sound, and different types of distortion (some kinds of distortion, I'm convinced, are unnamed and unmeasured). 

 

Some cashiers get ringing in the ears if they toss coins into the cash register drawer, rather than placing them gently.

 

Have you found any recordings that sound good at high SPL on your Klipsches, without the discomfort you mention?  

 

If you do have tinnitus, or a precursor (is there a precursor?) there is an over the counter drug some people swear by, at least they used to.   I won't swear it is not hogwash.  AFAIK, there are no scientific studies backing it up, but it has been about 15 years since I heard it mentioned.  It's Lipoflavonoid.  I think it is supposed to increase blood flow to your inner ear.

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20350162

 

3 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

(a primary care provider won't have a sufficient background).

 

Definitely see an ear, nose and throat doctor (ENT,  otolaryngologist).  PrestonTom is quite correct, a PCP may not know enough.  Even they sometimes know little about the demands of music or audio.  I knew an audiologist who stubbornly insisted that hearing above 8K Hz "does not matter" -- I suspect because hearing aid manufacturers ignore that final octave and one quarter, since people with hearing loss usually don't hear much up there.  I would have liked to get her and an equalizer in the same room for a demo.

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16 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

Some people, who do not have tinnitus, are just unusually sensitive to distortion in the high range.   In your case, now that you have revealing speakers, the distortion may be coming from the sound source, your CDs, streaming, even SACDs, revealed by your Klipsch speakers, but glossed over by others.  Quite a few speakers -- even some high end ones -- veil the noxious treble distortion on some CDs.  Klipsch speakers are not among them.  I was once playing a bad CD and my daughter said, "too loud!"  As I turned it down, I said, "Yeah, those piccolos."  She said, "No, the brass!"  Different people are bothered by different aspects of sound, and different types of distortion (some kinds of distortion, I'm convinced, are unnamed and unmeasured). 

 

Some cashiers get ringing in the ears if they toss coins into the cash register drawer, rather than placing them gently.

 

Have you found any recordings that sound good at high SPL on your Klipsches, without the discomfort you mention?  

 

If you do have tinnitus, or a precursor (is there a precursor?) there is an over the counter drug some people swear by, at least they used to.   I won't swear it is not hogwash.  AFAIK, there are no scientific studies backing it up, but it has been about 15 years since I heard it mentioned.  It's Lipoflavonoid.  I think it is supposed to increase blood flow to your inner ear.

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20350162

 

 

Definitely see an ear, nose and throat doctor (ENT,  otolaryngologist).  PrestonTom is quite correct, a PCP may not know enough.  Even they sometimes know little about the demands of music or audio.  I knew an audiologist who stubbornly insisted that hearing above 8K Hz "does not matter" -- I suspect because hearing aid manufacturers ignore that final octave and one quarter, since people with hearing loss usually don't hear much up there.  I would have liked to get her and an equalizer in the same room for a demo.

 

Hmm you're right, actually now that you mention it I am a bit on the sensitive side to sudden loud noises in the high range. If I think back, especially metal hitting metal and producing loud "ka-ching" sound made me really nervous and was very unpleasant.

 

Thank you for pointing out that there could be distortions in the actual recording, I didnt think of that. Mostly I listened to YouTube music as I didnt have time yet to get myself some quality recordings. I will try to find some high quality recordings and play them from a bit higher quality DAC (I have FiiO K10 that has line level output) and see if that also bothers me, like you suggest.

 

Actually there shouldnt be any precursor for tinnitus, nobody in my family was ever complaining about it, my grandma actually has very good hearing and shes 78, and I didnt really use headphones much in the younger years or go to many concerts or clubs. I did join the bellringers group but I always used ear protection, only a few times did the bells catch me without ear protection but I quickly put the earplugs on. So no apparent reason for tinnitus

 

When I was at doctor for tinnitus the first time I got some pills called Betaserc (from Mylan) for a short time. I hope my tinnitus never gets so bad that I will have to actually take pills to counter it, but thanks for mentioning them, I will keep in mind

 

I will see a more specialized doctor, but atm its a bit harder where I live due to this corona crisis. Its interesting that audiologist has made such ridiculous claims :)

Edited by Denix8

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I have no ideas about medical things but one thing that can accentuate or worsen high frequency's is the Yamaha home theater receiver. I tried one for a while for 2 ch and the highs were not great. They were kind of flat sounding and jumbled but still there, that may cause your ears to be aggravated ? I never realized this until I tried something different and I was not even using the amps in the receiver just the preamp section, it was a Yamaha RX V730.

 

 

 

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After having my ears irrigated recently and having a mild case of ringing, the less I think about it, the less distracting it is.

The more distracted I am by everyday events, the less I am aware of it.

When out in the quiet woods just listening for wildlife, it is not even an issue.

The mind can play a part in the process.

Welcome!

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How’s about not using the system for a few days and see if anything changes? Tinnitus is notoriously difficult to pin down and an ENT visit could be in order if nothing else but to obtain a baseline audiogram. Could be that you’re harboring a subacute infection or perhaps even seasonal allergies with associated congestion?? Best to get it looked at as it may lead to other problems such as vertigo. 

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How old are you? I suffer from tinnitus at times. As we get older our hearing range decreases and that hearing loss for me has been filled at times with ringing in the ear. I once could hear out to 22K hz. Now I top out at 13K or so. If I get around anything loud, music or otherwise, I get some ringing in the ear that can last for days.

 

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I always thought that the ringing is caused by the pressure of the tonsils on the ear nerve.

JJK

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12 hours ago, JJkizak said:

I always thought that the ringing is caused by the pressure of the tonsils on the ear nerve.

JJK

No (it is not that simple)  !

The process is not well understood. It can be caused by noise induced hearing loss, drugs, other diseases, etc. This is exactly why the the OP should be seeking competent medical advice rather than opinions from folks on an internet site. I don't mean to disparage folks on the site, but this should be treated as a medical concern and dealt with accordingly. 

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On 12/4/2020 at 11:47 AM, Denix8 said:

 

Hmm you're right, actually now that you mention it I am a bit on the sensitive side to sudden loud noises in the high range. If I think back, especially metal hitting metal and producing loud "ka-ching" sound made me really nervous and was very unpleasant.

 

Thank you for pointing out that there could be distortions in the actual recording, I didnt think of that. Mostly I listened to YouTube music as I didnt have time yet to get myself some quality recordings. I will try to find some high quality recordings and play them from a bit higher quality DAC (I have FiiO K10 that has line level output) and see if that also bothers me, like you suggest.

 

Actually there shouldnt be any precursor for tinnitus, nobody in my family was ever complaining about it, my grandma actually has very good hearing and shes 78, and I didnt really use headphones much in the younger years or go to many concerts or clubs. I did join the bellringers group but I always used ear protection, only a few times did the bells catch me without ear protection but I quickly put the earplugs on. So no apparent reason for tinnitus

 

When I was at doctor for tinnitus the first time I got some pills called Betaserc (from Mylan) for a short time. I hope my tinnitus never gets so bad that I will have to actually take pills to counter it, but thanks for mentioning them, I will keep in mind

 

I will see a more specialized doctor, but atm its a bit harder where I live due to this corona crisis. Its interesting that audiologist has made such ridiculous claims :)

I have had tinnitus for over 20 years, more experience than I ever wanted!  Mine combines in weird ways with differences in frequency balance.  I have a great deal of tinnitus aggravation from massed, highly distorted high frequencies, such as distorted radio or pop music or jazz.  Soothing classical music doesn't seem to bother me nearly as much, and I have always attributed this to a much lower distortion level from classical.  I try to minimize any sound which irritates my hearing or makes the tinnitus worse.  Also avoid any intakes that make it worse, Like, for some victims, salt or alcohol or tobacco.  I haven't consumed alcohol for at least 20 years! -- the added tinnitus and buzzy vertigo, that goes on for several days, just isn't worth even an occasional sip!

 

-- Larry

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I have had tinnitus for over 20 years, more experience than I ever wanted!  Mine combines in weird ways with differences in frequency balance.  I have a great deal of tinnitus aggravation from massed, highly distorted high frequencies, such as distorted radio or pop music or jazz.  Soothing classical music doesn't seem to bother me nearly as much, and I have always attributed this to a much lower distortion level from classical.  I try to minimize any sound which irritates my hearing or makes the tinnitus worse.  Also avoid any intakes that make it worse, Like, for some victims, salt or alcohol or tobacco.  I haven't consumed alcohol for at least 20 years! -- the added tinnitus and buzzy vertigo, that goes on for several days, just isn't worth even an occasional sip!
 
-- Larry
@LarryC Larry, I was just reading about tinnitus again yesterday and came across Meniere’s Disease. Has this been ruled out for you?

I’m searching for my relief of tinnitus. Unfortunately it’s a side effect of my BP meds.

Has Tesla invented their Time Machine yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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On 12/3/2020 at 11:59 AM, Denix8 said:

Hi

 

Regards,

Dennis

you have sensitivity to high frequencies  , it happens, to a lot of people in the Military ,  try to  lower the setting of the treble all the way down into the negative , and raise it up slowly  until you find a sweet spot that is tolerable to your hearing -

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On 12/4/2020 at 6:16 PM, dtel said:

I have no ideas about medical things but one thing that can accentuate or worsen high frequency's is the Yamaha home theater receiver. I tried one for a while for 2 ch and the highs were not great. They were kind of flat sounding and jumbled but still there, that may cause your ears to be aggravated ? I never realized this until I tried something different and I was not even using the amps in the receiver just the preamp section, it was a Yamaha RX V730.

 

Actually you might be onto something, 2 years ago about the similar time that I started having problems I also switched to Yamaha receiver(before this I rarely used it, it was in the living room). Not sure if it really is Yamaha's fault but timing matches. Maybe these better speakers can better express problems in signal

 

On 12/4/2020 at 6:51 PM, billybob said:

After having my ears irrigated recently and having a mild case of ringing, the less I think about it, the less distracting it is.

The more distracted I am by everyday events, the less I am aware of it.

When out in the quiet woods just listening for wildlife, it is not even an issue.

The mind can play a part in the process.

Welcome!

 

Thanks! Today when I woke up it was almost as loud as narrator on the radio, damn, it horrible. But I definitely agree that mind plays a big role in it (especially stress)

 

On 12/4/2020 at 7:48 PM, Bosco-d-gama said:

How’s about not using the system for a few days and see if anything changes? Tinnitus is notoriously difficult to pin down and an ENT visit could be in order if nothing else but to obtain a baseline audiogram. Could be that you’re harboring a subacute infection or perhaps even seasonal allergies with associated congestion?? Best to get it looked at as it may lead to other problems such as vertigo. 

 

Yep thats what Im trying now, unfortunately it can take a week or two to calm down usually, its not an instant process. As soon as this crisis with corona is over if it doesnt get better Ill get an appointment

 

On 12/4/2020 at 10:56 PM, JL Sargent said:

How old are you? I suffer from tinnitus at times. As we get older our hearing range decreases and that hearing loss for me has been filled at times with ringing in the ear. I once could hear out to 22K hz. Now I top out at 13K or so. If I get around anything loud, music or otherwise, I get some ringing in the ear that can last for days.

 

 

Im 29. Wow up to 22kHz? Thats impressive! On my current temporary replacement speakers I can hear up to 17 kHz, but its very annoying to listen to this frequency. Maybe speakers cant reproduce higher than that and I can hear higher, not sure. But tinnitus came suddenly, and it really correlated with using NC for first time, so I though that it "broke my brain". Or maybe I had it but never noticed it before that, if thats even possible

 

On 12/5/2020 at 2:13 AM, PrestonTom said:

No (it is not that simple)  !

The process is not well understood. It can be caused by noise induced hearing loss, drugs, other diseases, etc. This is exactly why the the OP should be seeking competent medical advice rather than opinions from folks on an internet site. I don't mean to disparage folks on the site, but this should be treated as a medical concern and dealt with accordingly. 

 

And you are right, it is a medical condition, it just seemed that brain can get confused and "ramp up the volume" if some trigger signals come in (just an observation)

 

17 hours ago, LarryC said:

I have had tinnitus for over 20 years, more experience than I ever wanted!  Mine combines in weird ways with differences in frequency balance.  I have a great deal of tinnitus aggravation from massed, highly distorted high frequencies, such as distorted radio or pop music or jazz.  Soothing classical music doesn't seem to bother me nearly as much, and I have always attributed this to a much lower distortion level from classical.  I try to minimize any sound which irritates my hearing or makes the tinnitus worse.  Also avoid any intakes that make it worse, Like, for some victims, salt or alcohol or tobacco.  I haven't consumed alcohol for at least 20 years! -- the added tinnitus and buzzy vertigo, that goes on for several days, just isn't worth even an occasional sip!

 

-- Larry

 

Yep, thats what Im trying to find out - what exactly is causing it so that I can find a solution for it, either by avoiding it or maybe if its specific fequency I can use a DSP and filter it out. I dont smoke and drink alcohol in very very modest quantities, but if that could possibly be a problem Im prepared to ditch it alltogether. But these habits I didnt change recently when it got worse

 

12 hours ago, baron167 said:

@LarryC Larry, I was just reading about tinnitus again yesterday and came across Meniere’s Disease. Has this been ruled out for you?

I’m searching for my relief of tinnitus. Unfortunately it’s a side effect of my BP meds.

Has Tesla invented their Time Machine yet? emoji6.png


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Actually no, I havent ruled it out! I did have a few episodes of horrible vertigo but that was years ago and then it stopped (no ringing though). I get horrible feeling when I drive with someone in a car, on a country road, really horrible feeling. You got me thinking I really have to see a specialist about all of this

 

12 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

you have sensitivity to high frequencies  , it happens, to a lot of people in the Military ,  try to  lower the setting of the treble all the way down into the negative , and raise it up slowly  until you find a sweet spot that is tolerable to your hearing -

 

I will definitely try that, thanks! And yes I definitely have some sort of sensitivity, sudden louder high frequency sounds really annoy me. I intend to buy an UMIK-1 to see how pronounced are high frequencies, if they stand out in any way. I will have to do it in software though because there are only "bass" and "treble" settings on the receiver, too broad settings probably

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OMG, I am not the only one, started having problem with tinnitus after buying BOSE QC35II headphones, I cant believe I am not the only one.

I thought it is weird that I felt a lot of pressure and started feeling discomfort. And the reason I am here is because, after paying for the money for speakers that I love, I started feeling more ringing, with Old Onkyo Speakers this problem was not there, I feel 2k frequency is too loud as well on Klipsch - perhaps ?

Denix8 could you please tell me what changes you have made to your lifestyle, it seems you are one step ahead of me for this problem - sorry to hear. ..

 

Thanks for help!

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My Tinnitus start maybe 2 years ago with hearing loss , I am 65 ,  just so happens that's when I purchased more klipsch , starting thinking it wold help with hearing loss , it has , see no difference with the buzz., though.

Sounds like am FM station not tuned in , just hiss , sometimes crackle and pop .

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I'm re-entering this thread after having been away a while ... I definitely have Meniere's, tho' only in the left ear.  High distortion, especially raspy distorted highs, are murder on my sick inner ear.  There's a lot of :"recruitment" of multitudes of random unrelated sounds in tinnitus and hyperacusis, a sort of piling-on of multiple distorted copies of the sound you are listening to.  That's why high distortion is such bad news IMO, because it'a piling-on of distortion on music that's already distorted -- a sort of multiplier effect of distortion products.  That's what I sense, anyway.

 

Hence a strong preference for very clean tube and tube-like sound.  That's my best recommendation for you, and don't make it too loud.  I hope you have it mostly in one ear, since deafness usually follows after 20 years or so.  Sorry,

 

Larry

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