How high to mount the surrounds in a 5.2.4 setup?

[Salz]

5.2.4 setup
I have the RP-402S for my surrounds. I have 2 rows of seats. Since the RP-402S have 2 speakers that are pointed at an angle away from each other, I am mounting these between the 2 rows of seats, perfect!

My question is how high to mount these?

- Dolby installation guide image shows these at or even below ear level!

- Most people say to mount these speakers a couple feet above ear level.

 

Which way should I go?
 

[Paducah Home Theater]

1 hour ago, Salz said:

My question is how high to mount these?

- Dolby installation guide image shows these at or even below ear level!

- Most people say to mount these speakers a couple feet above ear level.

 

 

In an Atmos system it is actually most correct to have the surrounds the same height as your mains, with the surrounds being direct radiating monopoles.  When Atmos first came out, Dolby was adamant about this.  This is what gives you the most separation. 

Of course a bunch of people complained because they didn't want to redo their existing rooms.  Dolby eventually reneged and updated their specs to basically say that elevated bipole type of surrounds like in the old 5.1 systems are acceptable.  They probably didn't like it but that's what the market wanted.  

To be honest most people elevate their speakers a little and use the RP-502S on the sides, which I'm technically supposed to not call a bipole due to the wide dispersion technology, but it's the same idea.  It is more comfortable, it's less in the way, and it fires over your seats and other people in the room better.  In an Atmos system though just realize that technically speaking, Dolby ideally wants you to do it the other way, especially in a new installation.  

[Chris A]

My experience has been to mount them at or slightly higher than the ears of the people sitting in the main listening positions.  How high above ear level usually is governed by whether or not you have chairs that interfere with the surround direct arrival sounds.  I use surrounds on level with my ears (ESS Air Motion Transformer-1s sitting on top of Belle bass bins).  Works well.

 

This is the ITU-R-BS-775-1 standard:

 

 

Dolby apparently does not publish its standard for Atmos (a Klipsch engineer mentioned this to me on this forum).  I don't think a lot of Dolby Labs, to be honest.

 

EDIT: here is the equivalent elevation and plan view from the Atmos Installation Guide:

 

 

 

So it says that the surrounds can be above ear level (preferable to be at the same level as the centerline of the fronts--at 1.2 m (47.3 inches--which is a little high by about 5" in my experience, i.e., shortened down Jubilee K-402s are about 42 inches off the floor, and this seems to be a sweet spot), but no more than 1.25 m above ear level (about 50 inches) above ear level--which is a lot higher.  I wouldn't place them that high if you're listening to multichannel 5.1 music recordings, too.  I'd strongly recommend placing the surrounds at the same height at the centerline of the front midrange horns, and place the fronts to within ±2 inches of the same height of each other (i.e., left, center, right). 

 

If any of this interferes with the screen, I strongly advise raising the screen up, and leaning the listening chairs backward to put the eyes on the center of the screen when the head is against the headrest.

 

Chris

[Paducah Home Theater]

10 hours ago, Chris A said:

no more than 1.25 m above ear level (about 50 inches) above ear level--which is a lot higher.  

 

 

 

Not sure where you're getting that.  It says H1 x 1.25.  Basically if your mains are 4' high then the surrounds should be no more than 5'.  They like to keep them pretty close to the same height so there's some actual separation, which you wouldn't get whatsoever if you did this.  The way you're explaining it would basically mean your surrounds could be over 8 feet high, which isn't the recommendation on any Atmos specs that I'm aware of.  

[Salz]

Helpful information, thank you. I'll keep them closer to the height of the front right and left horns which are already ear level.

[Chris A]

I read it as "+1" metre. 

 

So 47.3" x 1.25 = 59" in imperial units.

 

That's still a bit too high in my experience, unless your reclining chairs are pretty high.

 

Chris

[willland]

20 hours ago, Salz said:

I have the RP-402S for my surrounds. 

My question is how high to mount these?

I have my RS-35's mounted with the center of the horns at 77 inches from the floor.  While seated in my recliner, that would be 34 inches above my ears.

IMO, that is about perfect for my setup.

 

Bill

[Paducah Home Theater]

6 hours ago, Chris A said:

I read it as "+1" metre. 

 

So 47.3" x 1.25 = 59" in imperial units.

 

That's still a bit too high in my experience, unless your reclining chairs are pretty high.

 

Chris

That's the max allowed but also very normal.  Like I said in the first response, that wasn't what they allowed at first but a bunch of people threw a fit and they changed it.  The tops being 5' high on an RF-7III system is more in line with what most people do, if anything a lot of people go a little higher.  You have to be at 59" just to clear a typical theater seat with a typical surround.  Octane Continental is 44" high, RP-502S is 14" high.  The tops being 59" is only 1" higher than the seats and most people like to clear the seats.  

[Chris A]

19 minutes ago, Paducah Home Theater said:

You have to be at 59" just to clear a typical theater seat with a typical surround. 

Reclined?  My seat is "typical" and it's 45 inches--not reclined.  It's ~37 inches in the reclined position (lower, if you want).  What kind of "theater seats" would be that high? 

 

The seats in commercial theaters are nowhere near 59 inches (IIRC).  I would recommend not using those type of seats--they'll significantly interfere with the sound field...strongly.  No wonder why some here are saying that they mount them over 6 feet high. They also pay a price--they'll also experience timbre shifts by doing this.

 

My setup is focused on sound quality for surround music performance. Having all the channel midrange/HF horns at the same height above the floor--all the way around.  It's a big deal in terms of its effect on sound quality and subjective experience.  You should hear the difference by getting all the 5 surround channels at the same level--within 2" of each other.  It's like night and day in terms of performance.

 

Chris

[Paducah Home Theater]

3 minutes ago, Chris A said:

You should hear the difference by getting all the 5 surround channels at the same level--within 2" of each other.  It's like night and day in terms of performance.

 

That's why Dolby recommends such things for Atmos.  The elevated situation is left over from old 5.1 mixes where the surrounds are mostly for ambiance and any sense of height was dependent on the surrounds being mounted higher.  New mixes have very strong surround content plus the ceiling speakers are what provides the sense of height.  When a gunshot or voice or guitar comes from the rear left then pans around the room, yeah the ideal situation is pretty much the same height, with a direct radiating monopole, not elevated bipole / dipole / wide dispersion speaker.  Anything else is just a compromise to appease people.  

[Paducah Home Theater]

What's not spelled out is that unfortunately these official specs don't account for the pain you can experience when you have a single horn firing directly into your ear from 2' away as you sit on the outside seat.  If you're living in a large bachelor pad then it doesn't matter nearly as much.  Otherwise the person on the outside seat can be very uncomfortable.  People like to use things like the RP-502S and elevate them a little in order to avoid this situation.  It can be a big deal, there's no way I could voluntarily bring myself to experience that kind of torture every night, I don't care how cool the effects are for the middle seat, it's just absolutely not pleasant at all when you have a horn firing into one of your ears from a short distance away.  We have used matching towers in large rooms, for example I put seven RP-8000F's in a room that was 50' wide, I've put RF-7II's in as surrounds in similarly large rooms.  Now, you do that same thing in a 15' wide room that has 10' worth of seats then you sit somebody on that outside seat, and that's a recipe for an uncomfortable experience.  

[Chris A]

Wow...

 

If I were to make some recommendations, I'd immediately recommend ditching the over-height chairs and get something that isn't nearly that high...if hi-fi means anything...

 

I can understand your issues if you have tinnitus and consistently fail to turn the SPL down reasonable levels (or use your AVP/AVR a bit most effectively to control the LFE effects).  That kind of hearing loss is forever...

 

Chris

[Chris A]

I'm in the top 5% percentile for "sitting high in the saddle"--looking around when I get into airliner seats...which are contoured such that my shoulder blades are well above the inflection point of the seat where they think your upper body and head should be (i.e., I'd like straight seat backs all the way up), and I find it painful to be in that artificial hunched position for more than an hour or so, in order to rest in the seat.

 

But the back of my head is still below the height of my 45" HT chair. In other words, 45" is still too high for 95% of the population.  My wife's head is well below mine in same chair model next to mine--her chair needs to be no higher than 40 inches in the upright position. 

 

Remember the loudspeakers that don't use baffles that image like crazy (Vandersteen). 

 

This is the same principle: you don't want anything blocking sound from the back of your head -- and a reduced-size headrest down the back of your neck and broadening only to be the width of your head is the best thing of all (and some theaters I've been to have those seats).  There's a reason why they have those.

 

Chris