JUSTICE?

[BigStewMan]

Okay, that show that deals with weighty topics ... Bonanza, got me to thinking. Ben Cartwright while serving a stint as a judge and just sentenced a man to 20 years of hard labor said to his sons, "the law has been served; but was justice done?"

justice. n. 1) fairness. 2) moral rightness. 3) a scheme or system of law in which every person receives his/ her/its due from the system, including all rights, both natural and legal.

 

justice - Legal Dictionary | Law.com

So, gentlemen and scholars of the forum, does justice require punishment?  Does it require restitution?  If a person found guilty is punished; but no restitution made, did the victim receive his due from the system?  I'd love to know what the legal system thinks receiving your due actually means.   I'll bet that the family members of a murdered person don't feel all that much better after the murderer is executed. They wake up the day after the execution still missing the presence of their loved one.  I mean, the guilty person paying the ultimate price doesn't sound like it would ease my pain a single bit. That isn't restitution in my mind and restitution isn't all that important to me anyway.  I prefer the saying "Justice without mercy isn't justice." 

 

 

 

[DizRotus]

When I was a prosecutor I frequently told the victims of the crimes being prosecuted that “justice” was not something we were able to provide.  No conviction or punishment of a defendant could reverse the damage done by a rapist or murderer.  The concept of justice is extremely subjective. 

 

 

[BigStewMan]

10 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

When I was a prosecutor I frequently told the victims of the crimes being prosecuted that “justice” was not something we were able to provide.  No conviction or punishment of a defendant could reverse the damage done by a rapist or murderer.  The concept of justice is extremely subjective. 

 

 

I think I agree with you Neil.  Acceptance is probably a better goal. Let's talk about this some day at Tip A Few.  All rounds will be on me. Merry Christmas. 

[DizRotus]

10 minutes ago, BigStewMan said:

I think I agree with you Neil.  Acceptance is probably a better goal. Let's talk about this some day at Tip A Few.  All rounds will be on me. Merry Christmas. 

 

I’d like that very much.  I can almost taste their wet burrito. Ketchup would not do it justice.

[DizRotus]

Merry Christmas Steve.

[BigStewMan]

6 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

Ketchup would not do it justice

But I'll do it anyways ... I lived there, hopefully I can still get away with it. One of my best tours of duty. Never forget leaving Los Angeles to move there, I was downtown one day and asked "where is downtown."  I didn't realize that I was there. 

First day after moving into the new pad, went grocery shopping and my then wife pulls out the checkbook to pay and had no checks. I said, "I'll go to the nearest ATM and get cash" the cashier says, "You can just bring us the money tomorrow."  I was shocked and said, "where am I? they don't do this in Los Angeles."

[DizRotus]

While clerking for the two Ottawa County Circuit Judges in Grand Haven, MI, there was a murder trial in which the jury delivered justice by acquitting the defendant.  

 

The homicide  took place at a turkey processing plant in nearby  Borculo.  The defendant was a young Black woman who used a very sharp knife to  “vent” turkeys as they passed by on a dis-assembly line.  The “victim” was a young Black man who supervised the line.  

 

The defendant  was a large young woman, approaching 300 pounds.  The victim made it a habit to refer to the defendant as “Tiny” as he slapped her ample bottom.  This went on for some time before the meek young woman complained.  After one such assault, she turned to face her tormentor and shook her fist at him as she told him to cut it out.  The greasy knife flew out of her hand traveling approximately three feet before striking the soon to be decedent in the chest.

 

He pulled the knife from his chest and went to the plant manager’s office to complain, where he dropped dead.  An expert witness, an emergency room physician, testified that, even if the incident had occurred in an emergency room, the victim would have died.  The wound to his heart would have been fatal before they could crack open his chest.

 

The all white jury took little time to acquit the defendant.  While the jury was deliberating, the prosecutor candidly acknowledged that he would not feel bad if he lost the case.

 

IMO, justice was done.  The victim’s family probably felt otherwise.  Like beauty, justice is in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

, 

[BigStewMan]

when I lived in GH, they had their first murder in something like 25 years.  If I recall, the circumstances were that a guy fired a shotgun through a door and struck and killed some youth that was involved in some youthful mischief at his residence on Halloween night.  while the townspeople were probably shocked that they had homicide in their quiet little town, I was shocked that it was the first in 25 years ... coming from Los Angeles, we hear of this stuff happening daily. 

Neil, I was there from 1990 - December1993 -- maybe you were there and we crossed paths without realizing it?

[DizRotus]

What year would that have been?

 

 

[BigStewMan]

1 minute ago, DizRotus said:

What year would that have been?

 

 

don't recall for sure ... like I said, I was there from 90-93 ... probably 1992. 

[DizRotus]

12 minutes ago, BigStewMan said:

 I was there from 1990 - December1993 -- maybe you were there and we crossed paths without realizing it?

 

I moved to Marshall, MI in 1982.  I’ve lived in Birmingham, MI since the late 80s, but most summers found me visiting Grand Haven.  We might have crossed paths at Tip-A-Few, Fricano’s, Clover Bar or someplace else.

[BigStewMan]

5 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

 

I moved to Marshall, MI in 1982.  I’ve lived in Birmingham, MI since the late 80s, but most summers found me visiting Grand Haven.  We might have crossed paths at Tip-A-Few, Fricano’s, Clover Bar or someplace else.

ooh, Clover Bar has the best pizza. I'd forgotten about that place. I've also been to Fricano's.  That was a mind-blowing experience. I'd never seen pizza so thin that they cut it with scissors. 

You have undoubtedly driven past my old office on Harbor Drive ... we were right next to the American legion. Cool place .. they provided the CG with a bbq chicken dinner every summer during the festival.  Can't believe how many of my co-workers would whine about the festival. Sure we had to do some not so fun stuff like being a color guard at a ceremony; but I'd tell them, it's basically a week of playing softball, golf, and bowling ... and you're getting paid ... what is the problem here? 

[Gilbert]

13 hours ago, DizRotus said:

The concept of justice is extremely subjective. 

 

I never considered justice as being a concept; and don't think I can wrap my head around that part of your statement, nor don't want to. Undoubtedly I would have made a shitty lawyer.

 

For non-legal types like myself, your words are a depressing thing to hear, especially because you're an attorney and former prosecutor; but I understand we're suppose to be living in a "Civilized World", so I can swallow or force myself to understand your inclusion of the word "subjective" in that statement.

 

Cherry-picked from Leviticus......   (24:17-23 )

"Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the Lord your God."

 

Then Moses spoke to the Israelites, and they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him. The Israelites did as the Lord commanded Moses."

 

 

Is there a generally accepted point in time as to when the World and/or the United States became "Civilized"?

 

One of my favorite college courses was "Engineering Ethics". We had an exceptional professor (Dr. William G. Solomone, Ph.D. ) who loved his work. He was considered an accomplished engineer, Geotechnical Consultant long before he switched gears and went back to college to become a degenerate.... a Lawyer.  (his words, jokingly). His legal specialty is/was construction litigation and mediation. I remember him very well; conversing with him was always a treat. He could explained things effortlessly from a legal perspectives that seem similar to the way Jeff @jeff matthews uses to sometimes put things together. I loved listening to his stories about construction projects gone bad. He offered countless case-examples, the causes of which were always different. He always had the classes undying attention. The damages he typically discussed were almost always in the 100's of millions, which helped to explain the Porsche Turbo he drove to school. 

 

During the first day of class, just before he informed us that he was also a Lawyer, he introduced us to the origins of the "Building Code", which date back to ancient Babylon; The "Hammurabi Code" of 2200 B.C., which read essentially the same as the cherry picked portion from Leviticus, blunt and to the point. Zero ambiguity, void of subjective opinion. You could not use the word "concept" it was simply the rule of law.

 

 

[Bosco-d-gama]

Perhaps Justice is defined as the consolation that the criminal would not ever be allowed in any position to repeat their crime? The victims never get back their losses but play a pivotal part in securing a safer community in seeking maximal punishment for the perpetrator. The victim statement might be: You will never recoup your loss but rest assured that this criminal will not ever do to another what he’s done to you and your family. This is the best just reward that we can offer anyone.

[billybob]

...

[iRONic]

 I mean, the guilty person paying the ultimate price doesn't sound like it would ease my pain a single bit. That isn't restitution in my mind and restitution isn't all that important to me anyway.  I prefer the saying "Justice without mercy isn't justice." 

 

If we were to be just, we would absolutely kill a man for killing others. Justice isn't colored by emotion or by sympathy. It's simply a reaction to an action. A balancing of the scales. Something has been taken, so something must be given of comparable value. A life for a life. Mercy, though, is different. There can be justice without mercy, but no mercy without justice. In a way, mercy adds emotion to justice. It sees in each accused more than just their crime, but parts of them that are human. That feel and think and dream. And even the most evil among us do these things. I don't know which system I want in place. But if we wanted justice, we would kill the man. If we want mercy, we would not.

[Travis In Austin]

10 hours ago, Gilbert said:

During the first day of class, just before he informed us that he was also a Lawyer, he introduced us to the origins of the "Building Code", which date back to ancient Babylon; The "Hammurabi Code" of 2200 B.C., which read essentially the same as the cherry picked portion from Leviticus, 

Leviticus was repealed a long, long time ago.

[Travis In Austin]

10 hours ago, Bosco-d-gama said:

Perhaps Justice is defined as the consolation that the criminal would not ever be allowed in any position to repeat their crime? The victims never get back their losses but play a pivotal part in securing a safer community in seeking maximal punishment for the perpetrator. The victim statement might be: You will never recoup your loss but rest assured that this criminal will not ever do to another what he’s done to you and your family. This is the best just reward that we can offer anyone.

He smoked a joint. Rip his lungs out.

She charged money for sex. He paid money for sex.

He bounded a check. She shoplifted. . . . .

 

There are a lot of different crimes, over many, many subjects (property crimes, crimes against the person, drug, public corruption, etc. sexual crimes) and the overall consensus is that they be divided into two major groups: serious (felonies) and minor (misdemeanors). It is also uniformly agreed that the way cases get resolved be uniform and consistent regardless of which type of felony it is, or which misdemeanor it is. All felonies are tried the same way, and punishments assessed the same way. Same for misdemeanors. 

 

What you mention, punishment, is one small subset of "justice" and to even get there you have to consider criminal responsibility (culpability), due process, burden of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt (is it consistent with justice), who should be the finder of fact (judge, jury),  and on and on. 

 

There is a great synopsis on the philosophy of punishment here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/punishment/#Rel

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

On 12/22/2020 at 9:57 PM, BigStewMan said:

Okay, that show that deals with weighty topics ... Bonanza, got me to thinking. Ben Cartwright while serving a stint as a judge and just sentenced a man to 20 years of hard labor said to his sons, "the law has been served; but was justice done?"

justice. n. 1) fairness. 2) moral rightness. 3) a scheme or system of law in which every person receives his/ her/its due from the system, including all rights, both natural and legal.

 

justice - Legal Dictionary | Law.com

So, gentlemen and scholars of the forum, does justice require punishment?  Does it require restitution?  If a person found guilty is punished; but no restitution made, did the victim receive his due from the system?  I'd love to know what the legal system thinks receiving your due actually means.   I'll bet that the family members of a murdered person don't feel all that much better after the murderer is executed. They wake up the day after the execution still missing the presence of their loved one.  I mean, the guilty person paying the ultimate price doesn't sound like it would ease my pain a single bit. That isn't restitution in my mind and restitution isn't all that important to me anyway.  I prefer the saying "Justice without mercy isn't justice." 

 

 

 

Which aspect? Criminal justice, or social justice ("every person receives his due") Receiving "your due" is from Hobbs and social contract, but you have to go back to Plato's Republic.

[BigStewMan]

19 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

Which aspect? Criminal justice, or social justice ("every person receives his due") Receiving "your due" is from Hobbs and social contract, but you have to go back to Plato's Republic.

hadn't thought of separating the two; but it's obvious now. That statement of receiving their due was from the law.com definition of justice. strange that such an all encompassing word as "everyone" is used when I can't imagine too many situations where everyone gets their due. as Neil mentioned earlier there are situations where the victims can't get their due, if due is a return to what they had before (their life, their health, all the money lost). Perhaps, this dictionary definition is referring to every guilty person receiving a punishment commensurate to the crime? But it's rather subjective whether we're talking about punishment or restitution. 

in the Bonanza episode that got me thinking about this, there were extenuating circumstances and Ben Cartwright sentenced the guy to 20 years in prison; but suspended all but four months. The crime was bank robbery and the money was all returned.