Can Cornwalls Have Ambient Sound?

[Travis In Austin]

13 minutes ago, Chris A said:

  

This was the original question, Travis (below).  I addressed that question after I saw many responses that didn't address it.  I don't believe the amp makes a difference in the way the OP asked the question(s), but I did address the question of the thread title: "Can Cornwalls Have Ambient Sound?".  They can, but they're probably not Cornwalls anymore.  Then I explained how that can happen.

 

 

Chris

He didn't understand your response, and there isn't enough information to answer it without many, many, assumptions. He's on step 1, you are on step 78 because of confirmatory bias, which we all have. 

 

He has upgraded wiring, did he do it, or did they come that way? Is the wiring hooked up correctly? New binding posts, same questions. How old are his crossovers. Are those connected properly? Are his speaker cables wired correctly, or is one pair reversed and his system is out of phase? That's probably happened to everyone here at one time or another. Unless you know what it sounds like you could never know. 

 

Does he have  DVD/Blueray player? A test disk. 

 

Has he heard speakers, or those exact speakers in a situation where their ambiance was to his liking.

 

Does he notice a difference in ambiance between 2 channel material vs. HT material?

 

Your solution may be 100% spot on, but the goal is to achieve what sounds good to him. So it would seem to me to even be of any use to him whatsoever you have to establish a point of reference  and a common language to describe things.

 

What he is ultimately going to need to know is if a L and R CW(I, II, III or IV) is ever going to sound good to him in a HT set up.

 

 

 

 

[Chris A]

Those are all good questions, Travis.  However, the OP hasn't answered any of them yet (I hope he will, but I'm not holding my breath, either.)  He did respond to my initial post, however, so I assume he's reading all the responses to this thread.

 

As is usual, my responses assume that the OP's questions are being directly answered by my responses (whenever possible), but also I think of others that read these threads and might have similar questions, and tailor my responses to those people, too. Variously, that number of people not asking the questions probably exceed the number of people actually asking questions by at least a factor of 6 (if the number of "guests" on the forum at any given point in time is an indicator). 

 

I have seen the type of "answering a question with a question" responses by members here many times on this forum.  I actually grow tired of seeing those questions go unanswered by the (probably timid or embarrassed) OP.  So I try to tailor my initial responses to the OP in the form of answers first, which is what I have done in this thread.  Perhaps my approach is a bit more successful in getting the OP to stick around (in this case he responded to my post)--if he first gets some answers instead of a bunch of questions about his intelligence or if English is his first language (which I do consider to be abusive in many instances here, but that's just me I suppose). I figure the OP will eventually tell us more things about himself, his setup, and his room if we provide immediate value back to him/her and generate some form of trust.  That's the rationale, in any case.

 

When the OP responds with more information about his problems, I always try to respond to that improved guidance to answer the questions posed.  Sometimes I reserve the right to answer his questions in ways he might not have considered.  That's also value back to the person asked the original questions, IMO. I try to take a little pride in my responses here.  If you don't think that they "pass muster", perhaps you will tell me this in a PM instead of the open forum...?  It's just courtesy, I know.

 

[OT: On a legal note, did you see today where the "citizen journalist" in China that was reporting CoVID-19 information was sentenced to something like 4 years in prison?  I thought about that and the country in which we both live, and hope that never becomes us. Since you're in the legal profession, I thought you might have some insights about that subject.] 

 

Chris

[billybob]

Thinking we have made the point that some may go unanswered.

Some may fall through the cracks and not get responded to right away.

For those that are looking in with questions, it in general cannot be said, generally speaking, that this forum is not ready, willing and able to give much more above and beyond any question that comes their way. Even to the point of sounding like the 3rd degree, and giving free advice. We have different ways of getting there, but let no doubt exist, we usually get there. Guess we are happy giving people.

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

[OT: On a legal note, did you see today where the "citizen journalist" in China that was reporting CoVID-19 information was sentenced to something like 4 years in prison?  I thought about that and the country in which we both live, and hope that never becomes us. Since you're in the legal profession, I thought you might have some insights about that subject.] 

 

I saw the blurb I have to go look at it in depth. I'm following the Hong Kong.situation very closely, which makes that a slap on the wrist by comparison.

[Tarheel]

From this point on no ambient sounds will be allowed.

[wstrickland1]

54 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

I saw the blurb I have to go look at it in depth. I'm following the Hong Kong.situation very closely, which makes that a slap on the wrist by comparison.

Maybe but those 4 years may be pretty tough...

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, Tarheel said:

From this point on no ambient sounds will be allowed.

I don't think Eno got that memo.

[Islander]

It seems that the fleeing democracy activists are being charged with violating the border, along with the crimes against public order.  I'm guessing that their speedboat wasn't speedy enough.  They were heading to Taiwan, where they could find actual democracy.

 

In the countries we're more familiar with, anti-border crimes usually refer to a person making an illegal entry, not an illegal exit.  This really makes it look like China is a huge prison camp.  Even in Hong Kong, the nominally freer region of China, The Rules still apply.  For Western countries, the exceptions to freely leaving their countries, of course, would be citizens leaving the country to engage in illegal acts, like training with ISIS.  Meeting up with ISIS to have sex with the ISIS fighters, i.e., become their war brides, is probably also considered illegal b the UK government, along with the governments of other European countries.

[garthbernstein]

Thanks for the responses, here is more information:  I have essentially a square living room (12' x 12') where my wife and I watch TV.  The TV is higher up on the wall, the speakers are in the corners of the room (can't get them out into the room b/c it's a typical living room setup, not audiophile setup), and we sit in lounge chairs near the middle of the room 6' or so away from the speakers.  The speakers sound best sitting in the typical sweetspot (no surprise), and they sound "OK" sitting in the lounge chairs (basically because each of us are slightly in front of one speaker).

 

This is clearly a "back to basics" question, but what I'm hoping for is a more surroundsound type of effect, vs. the current effect of each of us primarily hearing one speaker (and just a little of the other speaker).  When I'm sitting in the dining room (adjacent to the open ended subject/listening room), I'm not getting great sound.  I know that may not be possible due to the room setup and directionality (is that a word?) of the Cornwalls, but just in case I was missing something, I was hoping to have the opposite of a "sweet spot" effect.

 

Looks like one option is to mod the speakers to add the smaller speaker on top, that's a cool idea.  I'd have to really study it to understand it, because my audiophile language and capabilities are low.

 

So, it's a basic question, probably a stupid one, but I figured I'd ask!  Thanks for your help

 

[billybob]

Ambience...

[Ceptorman]

4 hours ago, garthbernstein said:

Thanks for the responses, here is more information:  I have essentially a square living room (12' x 12') where my wife and I watch TV.  The TV is higher up on the wall, the speakers are in the corners of the room (can't get them out into the room b/c it's a typical living room setup, not audiophile setup), and we sit in lounge chairs near the middle of the room 6' or so away from the speakers.  The speakers sound best sitting in the typical sweetspot (no surprise), and they sound "OK" sitting in the lounge chairs (basically because each of us are slightly in front of one speaker).

 

This is clearly a "back to basics" question, but what I'm hoping for is a more surroundsound type of effect, vs. the current effect of each of us primarily hearing one speaker (and just a little of the other speaker).  When I'm sitting in the dining room (adjacent to the open ended subject/listening room), I'm not getting great sound.  I know that may not be possible due to the room setup and directionality (is that a word?) of the Cornwalls, but just in case I was missing something, I was hoping to have the opposite of a "sweet spot" effect.

 

Looks like one option is to mod the speakers to add the smaller speaker on top, that's a cool idea.  I'd have to really study it to understand it, because my audiophile language and capabilities are low.

 

So, it's a basic question, probably a stupid one, but I figured I'd ask!  Thanks for your help

 

Can you move the chairs away from the speakers? The room is 12', you can sit against the opposite wall, create a little more room. Play with the placement, move the speakers all the way apart, then move them closer a few inches at a time till it sounds better....toe in/out. Cross them in front and behind you. Even moving you head while sitting can change the sound. I'm thinking since you're trying to find a sweet spot for two people side by side might involve more toe in.

[Shakeydeal]

If you want a bigger two person sweet spot, cross them so that the axis is about three feet in front of the listening position(s). This will give you both better stereo separation and eliminate the “one speaker” sound you describe.

No modification of the speakers is necessary to achieve your desired results. It’s clearly a placement and setup issue.

 

Thanks for more clarification.

 

 

Shakey

[Chris A]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:27 PM, garthbernstein said:

This is clearly a "back to basics" question, but what I'm hoping for is a more surround sound type of effect, vs. the current effect of each of us primarily hearing one speaker (and just a little of the other speaker).  When I'm sitting in the dining room (adjacent to the open ended subject/listening room), I'm not getting great sound.  I know that may not be possible due to the room setup and directionality (is that a word?) of the Cornwalls, but just in case I was missing something, I was hoping to have the opposite of a "sweet spot" effect.

Playing with increased toe-in will help a little with stabilizing the center phantom image by probably not more than perhaps an additional 2-3 inches of width of the sweet spot using stereo loudspeakers only. In my experience, toe-in will not stabilize the stereo image so that two people sitting side-by-side in lounge chairs in a very small room (i.e., 12'x12'), and at 6 feet distance to hear balanced stereo.  You need a center channel loudspeaker and an A/V preamp/processor (AVP) if two people are going to be able to listen and get a balanced soundstage image. Stereo won't work in helping you hear both the left and right channels as balanced if you are off-axis from exact centerline with your ears by more than a few inches (or less in a 12'x12' room). 

 

Or, if you add the amplifiers in the same electronics box: you'll need an A/V receiver.  But be careful of the type of amplifiers in the AVR.  I'd avoid the class D amplifiers found in the lowest cost AVRs because your Cornwalls are ruthlessly revealing of the higher order harmonic distortion in those type of amplifiers.  Class AB amplifiers usually work best.  Use Google to help you find AVRs with class AB amplifiers.

 

I recommend a third Cornwall for a center loudspeaker (when you ask which model works best as a center), and if your TV is not mounted to the wall, simply set the TV on top of a center Cornwall.  Smaller loudspeakers will always have issues and audible compromises, and the center channel loudspeaker is always the most important loudspeaker in a movie/TV/video playback system, comprising about 70% or more of the speech recognition and locking in the center of the front soundstage image if you are off-axis by more than a few inches--like in most home theater setups that support more than one listener.

 

The surround ambience effect is typically provided by surround channel loudspeakers--two will do. They can actually be located almost anywhere within the 120 degrees from the center position with the TV screen (and even though the diagram below shows 100-120 degrees, it's actually more like 60-120 degrees, and the surrounds can actually be a little in front of the listening chairs on each side):

 

 

The type of surrounds can be smaller and less expensive than the Cornwalls, but note that using small and inexpensive surrounds will lock you into a "movie/TV program only" mode in multichannel mode, not able to reproduce good multichannel music well where the full music fidelity is placed in surround channels, too, and not just "echo channels". 

 

AV receivers (AVRs) automatically change modes from 5 surround channels (or even three channels--L, C, R) to stereo when you have stereo-only music and movies, etc., so you don't have to worry about having separate components for stereo vs. multichannel (5 channel...or 5.1 if you add a subwoofer).  The system is both stereo and multichannel, and the AVR (or an AVP using separate preamp and amplifiers) automatically and seamlessly switches between the loudspeaker channels used.  AVRs can also synthesize multichannel sound from stereo-only programs (like those from European and UK countries that typically only provide stereo).  There are controls available on the remote controller that the user can select to convert to surround channel mode, in order to lock in the center channel image for off-axis listeners when the source is stereo only.  There are usually several choices of surround synthesis that are available for user selection on the remote.  The AVR can usually be programmed to go into this mode (the default setting that is, but it can be manually overridden) when playing stereo-only sources.

 

Chris

[billybob]

Simple dimple...